hello i had runing my new cp node without bootstrap and im getting different block consensus hashes than xchain, im in consensus with xcdp.dev but no xchain, im at block
642984 is there any other nodes i can use to compare?

im almost in consensus with memepool.wtf with the exception of messages_hash

but with xchain all hashes are differents

another example:
MINE:
[2024-01-04 02:36:06][INFO] Block: 643633 (2.79s, hashes: L:67050 / TX:e2496 / M:5edf9)

memepool.wtf runs directly on api.counterparty.io which IS running on the bootstrap version.... I'll check into the xchain.io hashes when I get back tomorrow and will run a script to make sure that the hashes on xchain match what is in api.counterparty.io..... could be the CP node that xchain runs from has some slightly different data (prolly an addrindexrs issue with checking for first tx for an address when opening an EMPTY dispenser.)... TLDR, you should be good, prolly a minor issue on xchain, and i'll check when I return to work on Friday 👍️️

okey ser thanks

as is my first time wasnt sure if i had some error

also dont be matching the msg_hash is the less problematic right

the most importants are ledger and tx_list right?

nope... glad to know you did a full parse as well as xcp.dev... and your hashes match api.counterparty.io which IS running the bootstrap version.... verifies that the bootstrap and full parse hashes match fine... messages hashes are different, but that is to be expected.

yes... txlist == transactions... ledger == credits/debits/balances

is not yet full done but not so hard as i expected, 5 days running and im at 644k not too bad

Message hashes will be different if one node saw a reorg and another didn’t

How to know which one saw the reorg?

You can see it right in the messages

So you need to find the block where they differ

Okey

Will dig on it

Thanks

Np

https://i.gyazo.com/736f9f9e497e55efb6533bdcb387f1d3.png

Just more numeric asset spamming... you all know my views on this... it is abuse, as numerics were meant as a way for people to TRY out CP, not meant as a way for people to primarily use CP.... I am still of the opinion that we should put an XCP fee on numerics (as I am doing with XDP fee on numerics on Dogeparty).... as it is clear this numeric spamming will continue until an XCP fee is added to discourage this type of spamming behavior... The Pull Request to add XCP fee is pretty straightforward.... https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterparty-lib/pull/1237 ... up to you guys how to handle... just pointing out again, here we are 6+ months out from our last XCP fee discussion and the spamming continues... and it will continue to do so until the issue is addressed.

https://i.gyazo.com/993636f9df7b2a01874471c6cc6afc43.png

over 1500 numeric assets spammed in the span of a few hours..... TOTALLY not an attack.. TOTALLY normaly usage.... something we definitely want associated with CP... spamming numeric assets and bloating the UTXO set at the same time.... oh how quickly our platform can pivot from being seen as "responsible blockchain usage" for 10 years to a "abusive UTXO spamming shit-show" within 1 year. 🤦️️️️️️🙄 </end thoughts>

I see it fair.

Hey guys. I’m not affiliated with the current collection being minted, but I made the standard they are using to mint. ( https://github.com/DerpHerpenstein/src-721 ) The goal behind the structure is to minimize the file size of each individual asset by reusing data that’s already on chain. The assets are json strings that are easily reconstructed as unique images

I understand there is some leftover frustration from previous assets that were 100% unusable (src20) but that isn’t the case here. Every one of these assets is fully functional xcp asset and even has an anti spam mining fee associated with it causing it to be 6-7x more expensive than a btc transfer ($20+ right now). Let’s assume the fee is added and people are still minting numerics like this and as a result xcp does a 10x. this fee per asset only jumps to what? $20fee + $10 in xcp? The fluctuation of miner fees from day to day does more to deter use. Let’s assume with enough use, the price of xcp does a 100x. now all other xcp functions become prohibitively expensive. Do you change the rules again and lower fees for other functions?

im sure this is not the case, but the conspiracy side of me can’t help but think that this as somewhere between a personal vendetta, and an xcp bag pumping mechanism disguised as a concerned solution.

I’m disappointed that stamps/counterparty is a pvp scenario. It would be nice if both sides would play well and onboarding users and building content was seen as a net positive for all parties involved. I would hate to see it come to this but maybe the real question is, Does the consensus of counterparty nodes want stamps to completely leave?

Did you see prior mention that the xcp fee was always meant to be dynamic, i. e. can be adjusted down if XCP price becomes excessively high

i love stamps and own many but think a small XCP burn fee is necessary and healthy for CP

you can check this minting addresses, for most of them is the first counterparty assets they owns.... and most of them created wallet this night i have been onboarding some of them and teaching the tech behind

i think is not healthy for cp, is healty for xcp bags, what should be healthy for cp is add a small btc fee to contribute with the infraestructure, develoment and growth

burning xcp doesnt helps to anything more than xcp bagholders

doesnt solves any spam problem bc they are paying a bigger fee right now and doesnt solves any infraestructure/development costs problem

Annnnnnd we're back to this timeless debate.

Heard. What is this table?

And weren’t numeric assets intended to have no xcp fee?

Maybe I’m wrong, but based on the underlying context of these conversations, it seems like the fee is meant to prohibit numerics. I would assume this is the only fee allowed to always go up

If the goal is funding for infrastructure why not have a small btc fee on issuance?

*deter, not prohibit.

It's hardly even a debate. It's obvious that an xcp fee would not be a deterrence as the txn itself in bitcoin is orders of magnitude higher. And burning xcp doesn't address the "tragedy of the commons" whereby this usage... cough... I mean "spam" is bloating the database... cough... I mean UTXO set...

No, it's a literal database.

BTNS broadcasts don't end up in a database?

They do.

Maybe they need an xcp fee to stop such spam

I'm not here to argue one way or another, just don't want you thinking it's not a DB.

I'm just here for the show.

And the occasional meme.

This is a show I don’t look forward to watching

I know... my point was the pivot of concern from "the cp database getting bloated" to "oh no the UTXO set"... meanwhile CP has been bloating the UTXO set for close to a decade. Much worse before Stamps uncovered the bug where 7800 sats were getting trapped per output

I'm curious though, why not run a CP fork?

"Fork off" or whatever the annoying maxis say.

That’s bad for everyone isn’t it?

Not my call. I'm not a developer. I'm mostly a Mascot for Stamps

The Steve Urkel of Stamps, if you will.

I think so too...but it's obvious y'all facing dev headwinds in the current status quo.

XCP holders already burned btc to get xcp in the first place - if there is no demand to hold xcp then all this is not even possible i think - demand to hold xcp brings awareness to cp and more liquidity for everything - many CP assets trade primarily in xcp on the dex and if that token is not needed to make the vast majority of new creations(numeric assets) i think thats not good for overall cp and cp asset health - Shouldnt stamps support cp eco ? As you mentioned the main cost is btc anyways but a small xcp fee (maybe 0.1) is neglible for a single user but could bring some awareness to xcp and cp as a whole as so many stamps minting - am i wrong here?

There are longer term plans to emancipate Stamps from CP entirely (like SRC20), though minimizing disruption to the Stamps ecosystem is obviously a consideration.

Word. Why the strong opposition to paying the fee?

Also, what's the hold up in getting that fee bump merrrrged?

We're not here to pump XCP bags, sorry. That doesn't help CP, its pretzel logic to think so. Burning xcp does not fund infrastructure.

i think if it was voted by xcp holders it would be enabled very quick😄

im with you that would help xcp bags, but the main problem for that is to onboard people with the current way to acquire xcp, relying in dispensers where people that dont have an understanding of how they work will be scamed by rugpensers

A btc based fee that goes to a multisig that can buy/burn xcp would accomplish your goal with no additional user friction

So the problem is XCP distribution? We can fix that.

i'm all for it. I vote 2 XCP per issuance of all types. This should open up some cool use cases for named stamps if they are on the same price structure.

yes that is a good point but i think there is work being done with dispenser issues still - some demand for xcp would bring back exchange listings for example - something we lost because there is not much demand/need to hold xcp in the first place - this fee would bring that

There is no other protocol in crypto (aside from maybe BTC itself) that views "usage" as spam and tries to limit it through friction. Probably explains a lot about Counterparty's relative position to a 1 year old Ordinals protocol.

i would vote less personally 2xcp is quite a bit no?

xcp is so undesired that the counterparty foundation pays exchanges to run washtrade bots so that a minimum level of activity is maintained to avoid delisting. Give it up. XCP is dead.

yes but not enough to fix the rugpensers, the close after 5 blocks is cool but not enough, most of the rugspensers was performed not closing the dispenser, was more a frontrunning issue where sellere buys his own assets when buyer tx is in the mempool

xcp represents stake in the cp protocol - i think those holders should be allowed to vote on what they think is best for cp

A better approach would be for each mint just burn btc instead of xcp?

freeze in the utxo using the op_return certain amounts of btc. To mint

You don't get a vote when someone else runs the infrastructure

i think it wouldnt be undesired if alot of burns were happening - clearly there is alot of demand to use cp with stamps

as someone noticed before more than 30% of xcp assets are in dormant wallets...

why burn it, use it to cover infraestructure and development cost

also this is happening with stamps, to fix data btc is lost forever in the keyburn address

If you want xcp burn, a portion of that can buy xcp and burn it

That sounds too communist for my taste.

Why can’t we do the burn of XCP without needing to hold XCP like @jp_janssen mentions?

No one needs to buy XCP, the protocol does it automatically with issuance.

I think the community would fund this quickly.

is btc ser, you pay with your tx to miners for covering infraestructure costs

Miners do hard work. and they are rewarded.

and cp node operators dont?

We don’t need the exchange. I’d argue it holds price down.

If the price went to $100, it would 100% help fund CP infrastructure

support xcp and donations for dev will grow imo

I don’t remember the specifics, is it a fixed btc fee or a fixed xcp fee?

bc having nodes on cp costs money and headheaches i think JDog can talk about this as he has been handling this for almost 7 years

Through charitable donation? Maybe, but that's not a given. I think people like to make charitable gestures, "Oh if it goes to $1000 then I'll donate!"

The cost would be dynamic both for XCP and BTC based on BTC XCP fees and XCP cost

I can’t speak for everyone, just myself

Having bitcoin nodes does not give rewards. only miners get rewards.

Oh 100% I agree that you would. I don't think its a given for most.

ive donated btc many times for cp dev and will continue to do so - but alot of that comes from my belief in deflationary xcp and desire to see it grow in usage and adoption

yes but cp has not this approach so we have to as we can with what we have

I have by accident through the automatic donation setting

That's good to hear. But I;'m sure you can understand that solid businesses might not work on that model. CP is largely here today through JDog's benevolence

if this didnt make you a problem with dispensers dont dispensing bc you have sent the exact qty

If the cost is reasonable, predictable, and paid in btc I would think this is the best path forward for minimal user friction.

Mintasset=burnxcp burnasset=mintxcp

Pretty close actually…. It’s the nuclear option, but I’m done allowing counterparty to be abused….. if I need to fork counterparty to make a version that has an XCP fee and run XChain on it and let the community decide which CP version/ledger they want to run, That is what I will do.

It is unfortunate that we are back again in this place … but I’m done with debating if this is spam or not… numerics were meant for people to try counterparty out, not as the primary way to use counterparty.

Stamp devs say XCP fee is no big deal. We’re willing to burn XCP. We’re good guys. We’re willing to work with you…. So show it… support a XCP fee on numerics and support the ecosystem beyond words and talking about how big your project is and how much it’s doing for counterparty and not for self serving stamps project.

I have too much invested in this platform, financially, mentally and emotionally to continue letting it be abused like this.

I certainly hope the community moves forward with an XCP fee in the next few weeks to avoid any fork drama 🤷🏻‍♂️😜

it can be in btc and a portion of that can be collected in a wallet set to buy back and burn xcp on a regular basis perhaps?

agree

agree bigly

Honest question. Is it about bloating the utxo set, or storing more data than the cp nodes were built for

I was testing some dispensers and stamps in my wallet

burning xcp is a good idea.

So it's settled.

ummn how many times do i have to say i support the xcp fee. you even mentioned it in this message lol

Boom.

so we can do a fork both with xcp fees

Alright, next debtate.

I don’t think the problem is burning xcp, it’s the user friction. If the user can pay in btc and the price paid is stable in btc terms, if it burns xcp in the background, great

and one without btns

Yea must be in bitcoin to reduce friction

how can we show support and push forward with the xcp fee for numeric assets? Is it a vote by xcp holders or just general consensus? I think we have that already broadly and a vote would pass in an instant

@jsteezy1 @pappyG45

xcp was always the spam filter

I think this is mostly what stamps says. Let’s find a way to do the burn behind the scenes and get the community to fund it.

It will make the protocol easier for everyone to use.

time to dump these spammers

put a minimum of burned btc in the utxo...

That would be a good way.

this is happening

increase it.

To what level?

i think we can recover how much btc is blocked on stamps at the moment

with demand it will become more accessible - even on exchanges for example - or at the minimum more orders of btc/xcp on the dex making that function more usable(the btcpay way i think)

btc pay has friction too

friction is good

friction is proof of work

I think xcp burn that is transparent to the end user is the way to do this where everyone gets what they want

There’s no argument XCP causes friction, burn it behind the scenes with issuance

instead of being discussing this we should be discussing how to create a transfer method that would works with psbt so atomic swaps between btc and cp assets could happend

an average rate for each byte of information stored in the cp database

i think the fee should be enabled in the short term and after that some dev can be put in to work on a more elegent background solution like this which i would also be in favour of

thinking on your xcp bag again instead of the protocol growing

I would prefer the compllexity it keeps spam downn

I disagree. I think if it’s implemented and not paid in btc there’s a high probability of a fork, with the numerics not being on the fork that’s burning xcp

if you add the fee and people cant issue tokens they will go back to ordinals

why because of a $1 or less extra cost? I dont think so - but lets see

2xcp is the proposed amount for all issuances

no bc is hard to get xcp without being scammed for newcomers

bc it adds another tx to complete your issuance if is not done behind the scenes

It’s up to the other core devs @shannoncode @jp_janssen @hodlencoinfield to determine what they want to do… I’ve made my opinion clear… and the fact that I will be forking the ledger (on my own version of Counterparty, not in the official repo) if this fee is not added to address this issue.

Cool… I sincerely hope you do… it would be amazing if you would build tools to run and support your own infrastructure instead of relying on free tools provided by other community members👍🏻

Good

Are you opposed to a fee paid in a fixed amount of btc that’s burns xcp?

fee will help the demand side as you mention(pump xcp bags etc) which will help with xcp liquidity and even make exchange listings possible - But if more people were trading xcp/btc on the dex - which this would cause - then perhaps the btcpay style which is safe would become popular and therfor legitamately usable and dispensers of xcp would no longer be the primary way perhaps?

This solutions accomplishes the stated goals and I think would be agreeable to most?

too many assumptions... I'm more about attacking the problem at its root and achieving the goal I'm looking for, not relying on so many assumptions.

hahahaha what free tools do we rely on? Two CP nodes, 2 BTC nodes, DB Clusters, etc. etc. isn't enough of an expense? It's all funded out of my pocket..

There’s been discussions in the past about how to make the XCP, the fall into the background and pay only using BTC…. Ideas have been discussed, but nothing has ever moved forward…. And the spamming continues.

Counter wall it has been down for over a month, and the community still has not moved forward with a fix even though it’s just a simple button push to merge changes.

IMO CP dev is stagnant n unable to move quickly to address issues as they come up.

This is not a point where we are debating the optimum solution .

The solution here is to put an XCP fee on numeric assets just like there is an XCP fee on every other asset in the system.

Parasites will flee once we have a fee

I vote yay to Proposition Fee.

You’re gonna find out next week how much u rely on my infrastructure… Hope you’re right😘👍🏻

i vote yay to the Proposition fee

"fee will help the demand side as you mention(pump xcp bags etc)"

Not if Stamps leave CP... CP will be tumbleweeds in a desert once again.

We don’t want you or need you

We were born in the desert. Molded by it. You only adopted the desert.

so the stamps in my wallet would disapear?

Lets add the xcp fee

I've been here longer than you Aryan ;)

Add the fee fork these parasite shitcoiners

Oh, shit. Right.

We can agree to disagree, Mike… counterparty lived for 10 years before your project came along.. and as much as you’d like to think of your project as a white night, riding into save counterparty…. That is bullshit.

Counterparty doesn’t need saving, or projects that abuse the underlying infrastructure, and then play stupid

I, however, won't let the truth get in the way of a good movie quote.

haha it wouldn't have been created without your full backing. none of these were a concern for you until recently

5% of the my wallet profits will go to the development of CP....

It went from… let’s debate to… fuck this I’m done debating real quick.

Allow me to point y'all to this list of verified XCP dispensers: https://scarce.city/niftys-verified-dispensers

OK, carry on.

funny how only the one side of the 'higher friction' for stamps with a numeric fee is thrown around but not the opposite, higher friction in tx fees for people trying to use cp properly

core has been built on slow and small meaningful changes to move a step at a time in the right direction, not leaps

all this mental gymnastics is really grug tier banter that serves no purpose

and this is stamps fault right?

Mostly just Mike's.

Stamps are ghey

stamp commentary is purely devils advocate child behavior

This is Ordinals. Stamps is puny. We are not causing the mempool congestion.

doesnt matter you want to min max every argument in favor of your ideology

fake and gey

But hopefully one day. 🤞

In freewallet, yes…. Regardless of if the XCP fee gets put on or not…. I’m done with numerics on FreeWallet and xchain.io

My Bitcoin Magazine Op-Ed comes out this month. Watch for it.

Shit, nice dude. Congrats.

Thank you. Lots of Counterparty history in there as well, which I probably got 60-70% wrong lol

If you have been keeping up with the counterparty issues and are interested in having a conversation about the current XCP issues, Please reply to this message with a Day of week and time of day (US EDT) for a scheduled meeting to take place in this chat, where parliamentary procedure will be followed and one person speak at a time; about one topic, and answers questions that are asked in an orderly manner.

The replies will be used to set a day and time where all interested parties can attend.

>10 years

There is something bigger here but very hard to communicate through the noise.

Change the name to “Official Counterparty Argument Chat”

There are better dev chats

no doubt

Ones where the ratio of dev/non-dev actually make sense? If so, send me an invite if you need a shitposter extraordinaire.

What table is this?

Lol

Completely wrong. I'm not interested in Stamps whatsoever. I think its a cool idea, and it had actually already been attempted on both Counterparty and Dogeparty before you "invented it," but I'm infinitely more interested in Rare Pepes and older Counterparty projects than Stamps.

I've also been here for longer than anybody except for JP J and maybe holdencoinfield. I see the big picture as the health of the protocol being more important than any one project.

Nothing personal meant against those who create stamps as a means of artistic expression. Some of them are quite cool.

I consider you a positive shit poster

Shit+ poster

You two wrote the ‘official stamps protocol’ ten days after I made a named stamp. As a user Stamps was never a protocol, just a collection with sugar on top. As a developer, stamps warrant serious conversations that we can’t seem to have with people poisoning the conversation or refusing to answer in line.

Will you still support named stamps?

Bro just said it

He didn’t mention named stamps.

Part of the concern should be a protocol fork.

some of you are looking at this as if the stamps community has a 0% chance of forking xcp and becoming “counterparty”. I’m not sure what that number is, but it’s not 0%

It sounds like that’s a risk your all willing to take instead of finding an agreeable solution?

Which I think is a fee paid in a fixed amount of btc that burns xcp

We’ve already won

what is there to win?

You don’t have the capacity to understand

I think you get a free french fry upgrade on your birthday.

You’re just here troll

If you “win” and stamps isn’t on your chain, you don’t get the xcp burn with large asset volume?

I can’t understand how that’s a desirable solution?

We don’t need stamps

They get a nice quiet xchain that isn't a wall of ugly numerics. Just a nice orderly 3 mints per day.

You need us

Right now would be good. everyone seems to be online

Every road leads back here you all know that.

I think he wants to steer clear of the shitposting all up in this chat.

I thought we agreed on a fee though?

yes a fee its fair

so this is clarification that named stamps are supported?

Is that intended to be supported into the future or just a short term thing until they become spam?

the fee has never been a problem. i think it's just stamps in general are too ghey for CP.

Logically named stamps would still be supported as an XCP fee was paid to create one

I think the fee is the entire issue

You may consider just pruning all stamp: assets as the growth of named stamps may skyrocket as well.

Named stamps bloat the UTXO set just like numerics. So are we concerned about UTXO bloat or not?

they are pretier

I think It’s the fees implementation that is at issue

pretty fat

I thought it was just the fee.

This chat is a shitshow.

UTXO bloat was definitely brought up

It has nothing to do with UTXO bloat or muh XCP bags. Implementing the fee serves a dual purpose:

- it limits spam
- it proves the user has some skin in the game

To be fair, you have no idea what stamp is what without a name on xchain

can we vote by burning XCP? Perhaps burns to one address are a YES and votes to another are NO

The hilarious thing about this is that we are literally creating UTXO bloat by voting

It was but I thought it was brought up as some bad argument for implementing the fee.

Can't vote. Getting XCP is too difficult.

why so serious

twitter poll less serious?

at least the XCP burn ensures you have stake in the game to have a say

Panic at the discoteca

One way to fix spam is to add zk-snarks proof to the protocol. For each mint you must generate a zksnark proof and a hash with a difficulty....

logic doesn't seem to work. I'm just curious if we push named stamps as a thing (since there will likely be a fee anyway) their usage will skyrocket i'm sure.. which will lead to more concerns about bloat and forks and the same stuff.

Poll should have been transparent

Also the numeric namespace is huge we aren’t “wasting” any good names. If we add named, will we be blamed for wasting all the names in the much smaller namespace?

spamming the name set!

I was answering a question you asked, according to my best guess, as J-Dog seems to be away for the moment.

We encourage that. Have fun

I am working on a circom circuit to mint tokens in CP that are valid for a collection of CP20 that im creating.

The slightest bit of creativity solves this problem. Just issue one name and then a bunch of subassets as stamps.

yeah just some clarity would be useful. initially we thought about creating all numeric assets as a random named asset to contribute to the burn, and they would just point over to the numeric.

Maybe you don’t understand. Look into named stamps fren.

I have a question: let’s say CP was designed to be “stocks on the blockchain” or whatever. Is Google expected to pay extortion money to anonuser767674 to get GOOG which got scooped up 9 years ago with all the other common words? How would a stock market on CP even work with all the squatting?

random name generator sounds way more fun

based on a dictionary of all prior assets

From a technical perspective, which is what this channel is supposed to be about.

subassets

That sounds real fun

It didn't work, and its not going to work, but not for that reason. Complications due to the regulatory environment made it unfeasible. Plus BTC is way too slow for a Bloomberg terminal.

This would actually be amazing

you have an custodian that has a set amount of shares that they can distribute via the token, finite. Not the underlying company thats being traded.

So then named assets really have no value or close to no value. Wonder if the squatters realize their thousands of names will never be worth anything

again wrong

Named stamps have an indexer.

asset is worth whatever someone makes it worth or whatever someone will pay for it

And?

Where?

Lolz

It’s true GMoney sorry to break it to you

No indexer, why mine is named.

been playing with this to keep numerics visible in freewallet. just creating an op_return pointer on the randomm name over to the numeric. especially if we could use AI to look at the image first and determine words from the CP asset dictionary that would apply.

It’s called a free market

Elon can purchase my starlink asset anytime

They’ll issue on ETH or Solana they will never want you named asset bag. Harsh reality

77.77 ₿

Lolz 😂

You really don’t get it haha

Prove me wrong. I want to see receipts

Equates to two btc fees, solves what?

Dumb sounds more fun lol but I could be wrong

It is (or was at least) a very low risk-to-reward ratio to squat names. But now that we have subassets, again, the problem is solved. You just issue one token and then make subassets with any name you want, to your hearts content.

In time. Token is only good as the chain it’s attached to

Very true. They’ll issue on Ordinals

I see where you’re going and I’ve tried to spell out the issues for a way for everyone to understand and agree. Mike has logic here. If we could have civil discourse, more people could see the big picture.

You lack faith and conviction

lol. just a hack to get stamp support into xchan, burn more XCP, and create a load more transactions for the same assets. It's a win for everyone except the database.

Subs are free too. Or used to be.

it seems majority agrees with fee

Yep. We're done here.

as does jdog

We mashing merge yet?

people will want to bicker about the structure of the fee

Traffic is the value. That’s the point.

OTC first

They have a 0.25 XCP fee

The PR is already up.

I don’t think it’s bickering.

It’s a solution that will result in the stated goals and everyone gets what they say they want vs a solution that will likely result in a protocol fork.

I would propose that the xcp for numerics is higher than the named assets to promote more named asset usage

in the meantime a simple numeric fee is the best solution

So in the meantime a fork is the solution?

You’re in the wrong chat

if you want to run off the road instead of change lanes and off rope thats a possible decision yes

Ahh. I remember where I got that from… way before stamps ever happened I made a suggestion that free numbered subassets would be a thing to a named asset. That idea seems different now.

Free numeric subassets.

All this talk about databases and saving sizes is laughable.

There are so many assumptions in that analogy. Do you think stamps will die if we continue and don’t update to your consensus change?

Network effect is all that matters particularly with something like a namespace. Who in their right mind would issue on CP instead of Ordinals at this point given that it’s 1000x bigger in both user and dev mindshare and has actual funding? You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face by vanquishing the “spam” which is fine. But it’s a fever dream to think the best days of Counterparty are ahead of it.

spare the mental gymnastics please, the next biggest problem is going to be stagnation of progress if not the biggest

typical degen mindset

You’re talking about and chasing a bag. We’re talking (trying to) technicals and development. You said yourself you’re not a developer and trying to make money. Wrong chat. Bring your dev hat.

I think it’s just jdog forking from the official cp bits if there is no fee. Will stamps hinder the core cp node operators if there is no fee I guess is the question

the entire point is slow methodical onboarding and distribution.

@jdogresorg I see you starting to reply but not…

just implement the fee already LFG!

Breathe

Yeah ordinals has better tools and development at this point because they captured dev mindshare. CP is largely stuck in 2016. There’s nothing innovative happening here. Ordinals brought PSBT. CP brough dispensers that rug you

History will determine what you brought.

question is wen PSBT no wen fees

so go over there bro

hahahahaha

As someone who's been out of the loop for a while seems like the obvious question to ask is: why didn't you build on Ordinals?

Because we all love counterparty and want to make it more ghey

I agree with the other guy — you're in the wrong chat if all you're concerned about is marketing. Regardless, a lot of ordinals development funding comes from venture capitalists who want to have complete control over what they are building, which just isn't possible with XCP.

It sounds like you and the folks you are arguing with are in agreement that you don't owe Counterparty anything, so I don't really understand the brinksmanship and veiled threats.

im going to disagree with you as last 7 years cp has been controlled by xchain which in words of his owner is a product

and we can see the consecuences now

hes afraid we are going to turn off his money printer lol

That's a block explorer for Counterparty. J-Dog has repeatedly welcomed the building of other explorers, and now we have at least two more.

Because I was trying to save CP from irrelevance by giving it Stamps. You’re welcome

I'm just thankful none of the degens in here were ever core devs lol

is not a block explorer anymore if he removes support for part of the protocol, it will be a directory for historical nfts if you want to call this way but no more a block explorer

Rare Pepes and Spells of Genesis alone will give it relevance for as long as Bitcoin is around

I am trying to understand the argument: you built on Counterparty out of the goodness of your heart?

Wait, what? That was just the fastest way to make Stamps a thing. This is just a lie.

Yes

I like counterparty and think stamps is a net positive for adoption and would like to see stamps continue to operate on xcp…

Okay then I suppose that if the community decides to add a fee to numeric assets it's no hard feelings in that case?

The critical assumption is that your on the fork that wins.

If he finds numeric asset spam too burdensome, thats 100% his call.. Its up to you to build an explorer that includes them.

we are VERY confident

a fee on numerics will make named assets spam

I hope so I got a big Pepe bag

I see that

OK, how so?

Let’s assume a fork happens and stamps decides to remove all xcp fees, and uses the current network effect to onboard 100k users, which chain wins?

Yes you still have your cards

why would we remove xcp fees? that's not the question

Bitcoin wins

jdog is forking from the CP code

and stamps will stay with the official bits

It’s a hypothetical situation to illustrate my point that xcp could become bsv

if users see value in the official bits then they would chose to stay on that 'fork'

and Spell of genesis is migrating out.... i think i know why....

shitcoiners always so short sighted... this train wreck will be fun to watch

There will still be Counterparty and then whatever you guys decide to call your protocol, which hopefully isn't also "Counterparty." That would be very Roger Ver of you, even though we're not talking about a chain split.

‘Stamps’ as a ‘protocol’ is a disaster.

‘Stamp:’ fronts as a protocol.

Saving base64 across multiple transactions is why I’m here. (This is the dev chat right?)

We are currently victims of the limits of language.

The ability to have immutable data is great. If we could put our egos aside and work together, we could make a better system for everyone.

incentives matter

hence why we support xcp fees and whatever new transaction methods can be implemented into counterparty to reduce costs, ensure immutability, reduce trx size, and prevent bloat

some good discussions going on around new transaction types

i think the wording is 'meta' protocol

like cp

we have enough stamps people in here thank you

I mean… the unchanged protocol would probably be… counterparty… we’ll see… those situations are messy and the outcomes aren’t so obvious from the outset. I’m certainly not so confident to proclaim to know how it would turn out

check your dms

need funds for more xcp

Be that as it may…

@reinamora_137 check dm

so i think all we have learned here

1. jdog will fork from the core CP bits if there is not a fee implemented on numerics
2. stamps will stay with the core CP bits regarless of the fee, or implement a thrid fork of CP

sounds interesting to have 3 forks of the same assets.

I think we learned ‘Stamps’ needs a new name. Something that defines it as a collection, not a protocol.

Yeah I mean this is the flipside of the fact that blockchains are fundamentally non-coercive

Again, been out of the loop for a long time. Stamps are just numeric CP assets, yeah?

why?

A protocol is simply a collection of rules governing a system. Stamps meets that criteria in my view. It may be fake and ghey but it’s a fake and ghey protocol that exists on top of another protocol just like CP rides on top Bitcoin

Bitcoin Stamps are numerical cp assets which has the art onchain in the description following stamp:<base_64_data> using multisig issuance

Understood, but that data is all parseable by the Counterparty reference implementation?

yes

Y’all need to go touch grass

cip 26 and cip 27

The same reasons why telling a beginner about a ‘wallet’ and ‘signing’ is difficult. Victims of language. To me, in the dev chat at least, a stamp can be discussed as an asset type, an asset in a collection or an action. People will need to differentiate the differences to make any headway.

Funny. I almost responded to you with the same screenshot but rose above.

lol close enough

I’m gonna fork counterparty right now and only my pepe collection address will have the right to issue new assets

a fourth fork ensues

Mine will still be called counterparty tho just to add to the confusion

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COLLECTION OF cp assets which has the DATA onchain in the description following stamp:<base_64_data> using multisig issuance

ohhh wait your transaction went through but is invalid on our counterparty. you'll have to go make a new one over there. me buying more mining rigs rn

lol... AFAIK everyone here agrees with an XCP fee... so there will be no "fork" unless you guys make one 🤷️️

I’m forking Counterparty to the Twitter blockchain: https://x.com/mikeinspace/status/1743327110330994961?s=46&t=h1IrRMWKX4jvwsMxM_AqDQ

My named stamp predates CIP-26 by ten days.

Logic is for poor people. It holds you back

There was a survey, not everyone agrees.

What we need to do here is try and limit emotions and define the actual problem

Tried that

This is an emotional response fwiw

😝

https://t.me/Counterparty_Dev/9397

from my perspective core issue I have is that spamming numerics a.) doesnt pay an XCP fee and b,) lags xchain parsing via counterparty2mysql.... which then causes more issues (dispensers saying open when closed, balances not showing up, ppl not able to use freewallet..... My concern is keeping xchain and Freewallet up and opreating as it has been for the past 10 years.... no emotion, just logic (sorry mike)

https://github.com/jdogresorg/counterparty2mysql

so spamming named assets is not a problem?

I encourage anyone to look at the codebase and see if you can find any optimizations to speed up parsing.

so why not instead of haviing to parse to mysql from cp we integrate mysql db in the protocol level?

can parse blocks in less than 1 sec by removing sqlite and going direct to mysql

…pertaining xchain not the protocol. Respectfully.

spamming which takes down the infastrucure on which all things run xchain/freewallet is the issue... CP can handle the spam, counterparty2mysql cant.

oh i thought btns was the only thing that took it down recently

Guys

Where mute button

.

Is there a stamps block explorer?

WIP

So stamps still rely on xchain?

stamps indexer dont

I would hope not!

some stamps websites as rarestamp yes, we relay in xchain for dispensers, asset info and sales

bc im giving all my time to indexer and explorer and i havent time to change it and at the time we built this was the only way to do it, i asked permision to J-Dog for that and he let me do it

I’m just gathering info, pls don’t feel like I’m attacking

I think blockchain dot info independently parses the data from the blockchain. Unsure about regular stamp explorers like Ninja. They may or may not have some dependencies

no worry

I think in general everyone in here basically agrees but we’re all viewing the problem for different angles

So I’m going to attempt to boil it down

problem is spam
fee makes it costly for spam
spam goes away by implementing fee

Counterparty current infrastructure begins to breakdown with heavy use

Oh sweet summer child

you are wrong again bc you have not techical perspective

Ok pls ignore gmoney and mike

I’m trying here

Xchain is not the protocol. Stamps relies on the protocol as it was around March.

Yes yes pls give me a second

the issue is db structure and relaying in a db engine very old, twitter has 100000000+ data to store than cp and works very smooth

I’m getting there

so back to the summary…

switched to computer so i can actually type

counterparty infrastructure begins to break down under heavy use

what is counterparty infrastructure you ask?

its what users rely on to interact with the platform

No. The problem is a slow php script populating a SQL database, and miscommunications between developers and end users.

this includes the protocol itself, block explorers and wallets

so lets look at why it starts to breakdown…

yes but this is a big problem as im getting to...

Me too. Been at it for a few hours. Welcome.

protocol can handle the load currently for anyone running a node, blocks take a few seconds to parse and life goes on

which leads us to block explorers, of which there is really on one that is all encompassing (xchain), we have xcp.dev and memepool.wtf which give some partial info

xcp.dev too

counterblock which is part of the federated node stack is so unreliable that jdog needed to build a script that would repopulate the sqlite db to a mysql db complete with indexes so that it is performant for users when doing address lookups etc

this worked fine for many years

but not it is not working so well under heavy load cause xchain to lag and people to have dispenser issues etc

So you're saying we should rewrite it in Rust? I like the way you think.

looool

jdogs fix was basically a stopgap but it worked well enough that its been in place for as long as it has

Yes. Done yet?

How much is bounty?

1 numbered stamp.

so what do we do? building new block explorers is one way to take the load off of xchain but we still have db scaling and querying issues

this is why is not possible to have a technical conversation with people who are not devs they get bored and start disturbing like chillds

anyone thats used counterparty-api is also aware at how inefficient that can be

why not migrate to better db engines?

the only real solution here is to make the countparty-lib db more performant

@hodlencoinfield would the issue be addressed if requests were made to counterparty api directly?

its too slow

nvm lol got it

i ran into this with memepool.wtf

postgress, mysql/mariaDb

when i started working on address lookups etc

are very powerfull db

which is why its just txs and blocks right now lol

right okay, makes sense!

the solution to all our problems is better db performance within counterparty-lib and better more efficient queries from counterparty-api

so that anyone can write a block explorer just using that

Good for low volume. I just took a look at script. Maybe a cron job or webhook push after a new block to a script that dumps the sqlite? Looping through is nice but here we are. Dump sqllite to MySQL then cleanup in MySQL after.

i know @uanbtc has optimized some of the queries

does he have PRs open for review?

this is the source of all our troubles and all the solutions proposed dont really get to the crux of the problem

all the code is opensource

Perhaps the numerics have a small btc fee that goes to modernizing counterparty

https://github.com/CNTRPRTY

SQLite -> MySQL as a major first move

we need someone to take it on, then we can figure out how to compensate them

If there’s an open bounty, someone will take it on?

Woof.

i have been familiar bc i did this task early with the os stamps indexer but i dont have enough time to take this task

thats the forever problem with this stuff, developer hours

and its why jdog gets so frustrated

because it falls on him when his stuff breaks which everyone is relying on because they havent bothered to build their own solution

lets just fix it

but we need a solution now, this seems like it will take lots of time

The collection that just minted was 10k items. A fee of a $2-3 in btc and there would be enough to fund the work to implement MySQL

Logstash is your friend here imo

implement the fee reduce the amount of spam for now

Not really. Just the ability to focus.

I use it at work to sync tons of huge databases

jdog shared his open source repo, if anyone has any solutions to make it more performant then im sure he’d love to see them

End users not understanding the protocol, possibly due to lack of official documentation or support. Kids use it their way instead.

Finally after hours, technical speak.

Push away a new user base and kill momentum.

Ser, this is Counterparty. This is Bitcoin. It's what we do.

Toxic XCP Maximilism