Again, respectfully, you're speaking in general terms but there are quite specific attacks that have been gamed out in this channel.

Let him have it.

I’ve been here for the whole thing.

/stats

Dang

I never said there are not attack vectors. I care about users.

Are you an alt/sock or a founder/og? Hard to keep track. You aren’t in many channels.

I am one of the founders of Counterparty.

I thought so. Respect.

As long as the others vouch.

one question when people calls other sock is bc they thing is a subaccount of someone?

im a litle lost in some terms

jeje

Periwig has 'co-founder' label/badge in the Official and Dev chats

@teysol Would you do the honors, please :)

yep confirmed!

Socks aka sock puppet

pretending to be another

https://search.dnslytics.com/search?d=domains&q=ip%3A54.39.24.32

wow how many domains he controls

Which

this ser

@reganhimself has the collections' json feed links

@jp_janssen did a full archive a year ago or so

great!

what do you think about store it on arweave?

Personally not into it

I have a script for batch uploading to arweave

Includes all the imgur linked stuff too I think

I uploaded the full pepe wtf catalog last year, 5000+ images and it cost like $8 in arweave tokens lol

Nice. Might as well upload all the things

Jk. I think it is the wrong direction. I strongly believe in right to repair. the green banner nonsense removed that

I think it is the wrong direction to concentrate on currently

yes i think it as a cool start point at least as a fallback for all the images

@XJA77 Does rarestamp.xzy have namedstamp support?

not yet ser rarestamp development is paused sice im working full time in the indexer and now in this fork drama

Someone had a rarest of rare collection

which one?

I went looking on yours thinking it was you but no dice. Maybe the dev will surface. I will tag you if I find it again.

how was the collection art?

yess we know most of them, artists etc..

I wasn’t serious. You have a DM from me.

And you from me lol

Yes, i saved images from all asset with url descriptions.

However, images for assets that dont have image urls were not saved.

Perfect

where are there ser?

Yeah I posted Joe's tweet with good info to the OG Rarepepe trader chat.

I think a lot of them know best thing is to do nothing at this time ..

An statement/update from the 'core devs' would be a nice thing to see

could be a good starting point maybe to store them in a decentralized cloud service like arweave (they dont pay me i promisse but i like the permanence they offer=

can you point me to this group?

want to know their thoughs i will be quiet

it's linked on rarepepewallet.com let me go get it

just founded

https://t.me/+RHJ6MDMME545MDk5

Not bad ideas here but wrong direction and a side project imo.

if we want to support this images at new explorers we need a way for retrieve it, i know is not critical and the truth is that most of them points nowere so is understandable that the images in the new explorers can be broken but if we want to onboard this OGs comunities on the opensource tools we need to have the images there, if not they wont stop using xchain

About the statement Im 100% agree. We did this in the past when we had a little trouble with src20 and helped a lot. Im preparing a statement to publish from our POV at Universelle. But would be even better if the evaluation of the situation plus Next steps its signed by the parts involve In bringing solutions. Can send a draft in a few hours.

I guess this is referring to images

Even with 'pepechain proofofrare' I am not 100% sure that even has all of the original artworks, I was informed that there was once upon a time an animated card that is no longer animated .. I could be wrong/miss informed but i no reason to doubt the person who told me - maybe there is a scientist that can review the original submissions and check ?

good luck reproducing an accurate ledger on reparse with tweets being deleted n all 🤷️️️️

jpjanssen.com/xcp-archive/

The archive is 13 GB. I'd be happy to share it if you let me know how to

Wow

Already @snunez42 has 9gb

I think mega.nz could be an option?

Or maybe put it in the static folder of this server?

This is the most agressive attack I have come up with so far.

A user has 1k xcp, and issues a numeric asset on 9.61. They now have 999.9xcp on 9.62 and 1k on 9.61. They then open a dispenser for 1k xcp. The dispenser to sell their 1k xcp. on 9.61 It opens, on 9.62 It fails because they don’t have 1k…

If this starts happening the divergence gets huge

🙏 torrent please.

Yes another option

that way multiple people can seed the whole volume. maybe someone can consolidate the two collections and post a master torrent?
this way all the images can be accessible by anyone for archive purposes

I think he’s referring to my X Stamps joke project. See I’m a maniac, and don’t really consider consequences. I won’t be buying X Stamps (not permanent), but if someone wants to buy mine… hey…

Ultimately it’s meant to drive traffic to Bitcoin Stamps

Arweave is a good place for archive too

Yeah arweave is def a good option, 9 gb is like maybe $20

I promise I'm not paid by arweave jajaja

I have my concerns about arweave. I know what they “promise” it just doesn’t seem sustainable based on the tiny 1 time cost they charge

It just needs to last until the next thing

So not 200 years???

right, and how much does a torrent cost?

Torrents go dead all the time. They need to be actively seeded which means only popular stuff survives

I know it's cheap but the community around is big enough

I see it as a midterm solution

I’m sure people would donate to a seed box

Uploading to my web host. 18 min remaining

It’s all predicated on shitcoin tokenomics. Is arweave token going to be around in 5 years?

Perfect ser thanks

I'm not interested in arguing about pseudo opinions.
there is technically more advantage in my suggestion for long term purposes for the most people to be able to use

Arweave is best long term, but harder to say grab the whole archive

The arcive was hashed onchain in 2022. Only need one copy of it to survive.

Idk ser but let's see in 5 years and we can change it, better than nothing it is IMO

Forever or until arweave foundation runs out of funds

But their infra is super snappy

Great uptime

Sure I agree it can act as a stepping stone for now

And it’s cheap one time cost paid in crypto

i preffer arweave than ipfs

No one needs to sign up for anything or host anything

It’s a good crypto solution for the time being

i see it this way

is the better solution in the mean time

Is it actually decentralized or just running off AWS if so snappy? Not that it matters lol

I don’t care lol

yes is decentralized

IMGUR is best blockchain

you can spin up your node and start being rewarded

needs just some tb of space

lets stay focused. we are only moving around a copy of a backup. we are not yet presenting a comprehensive archive to the community. can we reign it in a bit please

Longest track record by far

sir

https://arnode-guide.theloneronin.vercel.app/

Re arweave: If you gunna do a big directory upload be sure to arkb (command line). For your process, it will keep track of whoopsies and replace etc whereas ardrive (ui) can be cumbersome for large directory stuff (if it fails for some reason you don’t know exactly what files are there (fully) without checking…. Arkb is is awesome and it works out cheaper than the ui option somehow too

i plan to use it just as a fallback for images that dont shows

cool

What is nice about arweave (and IPFS) is that the hash is encoded in the URL, I believe.

The uri uses the data_tx_hash (I think) which unfortuantly is not a hash of the file - but I still think it’s cool that it is chain based - the http is very fast compared to IPFS in my experience too

We could stamp the magnet link once every X months.

This is the type of thing donations could be great for.

Successful commercial projects may also wish to keep a seed active as it helps them - team work makes the dream work or something

For some reason east assets gives people long urls to share but Arweave urls are as short as arweave.net/hash/file.ext

You can also negate the file.ext if you aren’t using an indexed directory to get an even shorter url

Probably by acting as middleman it allows users to make updates without updating the token issuance?

i think it should be all three - arweave, ipfs and magnet

Well you can’t update an arweave file - you can but you get a new hash for it (same as indexed directories) so the hash you give someone is like a locked version unless you update their hash reference to it…. Sorry misread that I think

Hmm. Perhaps but it keeps the hash still so the file is still locked

Hmmm… see when they launched i thought their interstitial url was needed to fit into Freewallet’s description limit, but what you’re telling me is arweave links are even shorter

It might just be it appears that the other stuff in the url is relevant, it just isn’t

Yeh for sure

They seem to include a subdomain before arweave that has some reference hash - but you don’t need that

I built an arweave upload tool will try and get it on github today or tomorrow, just fill a directory with files, add a private key with some arweave in it and off to the races

How do they handle copyright takedowns? Can I upload my entire music collection so I can listen anywhere?

Sure

lol

I have no idea tbh

You have an option to do private directories but I think that comes with the hassle of having to use keys to get into it

I think… the ghostface fake got taken down off arweave

@IndelibleTrade true or not?

If you look at the rare pepe scientist simulator source you’ll see about 5k arweave links

I don’t think so

The linked music… I gotta dig it up.,. Maybe I dreamed it

Will take a look later thanks for tip

https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0xe70659b717112ac4e14284d0db2f5d5703df8e43/37

I had to upload the entire pepe wtf catalog to arweave for this game

Ask Scrilla

With hosting mp3s I’m sure it would be fine (legally blablabal )so long as you kept it private I guess the isssues are if that becomes public as o would imagine they at least have some analytics for big usage

Record labels crawl using Algos then send out C&D notices even if they have no right to

Mfers

hey

/asset/fakeghost seems ok

this is my position

Counterparty Fork Controversy: A Deep Dive into the Current Debate and Our Position

https://twitter.com/shaban_shaame/status/1745094416765710447

https://nitter.net/shaban_shaame/status/1745094416765710447

Counterparty Fork Controversy: A Deep Dive into the Current Debate and Our Position

Counterparty is currently undergoing a fork. The main reason for this fork is Jdog, the main maintainer of the Counterparty protocol and the builder of widely used tools such as Xchain (a block explorer) and freewallet (an advanced Counterparty wallet), deciding to introduce an update to the protocol. This update imposes a fee of 0.1 XCP on the issuance of free numerical tokens. The rationale behind this change is the recent increase in free token issuance due to the usage of stamps, which are used to store metadata on the blockchain. This proliferation has had an impact on Counterparty2Mysql, another open-source tool maintained by Jdog that indexes Counterparty transactions.

Counterparty2MySQL is the current reference for Counterparty infrastructure that EverdreamSoft, as well as several other builders in the ecosystem, are using. Imposing a fee may have two effects. The first one is reducing the demand for creating low-value tokens, although the actual impact of this effect is still up for debate, as 0.1 XCP is currently valued at around $0.50. Another potential effect is increasing the value of the Counterparty protocol by burning more XCP and thus rewarding stakeholders.

Many in the counterparty community disagree with this change. They believe that the decision was rushed and made unilaterally. They doubt the effectiveness of implementing a fee of 0.1 XCP to reduce the quantity of tokens issued. They argue that one implementation challenge should not dictate the protocol rules.

As a result many members of the community decided to continue using counterparty counterparty-lib v9.61.0 while xchain is using counterparty-lib v9.62.0 effectively creating a fork

State of ecosystem

Counterparty is one of the oldest functioning layers that enables users to issue custom tokens and includes a decentralized exchange. It provides a convenient and powerful method for token issuance, utilizing the security of the Bitcoin blockchain to validate transactions.

Many OG games and art projects, such as Spells of Genesis and Rarepepe, have been built on Counterparty. Despite its power, Counterparty has always remained niche. This is likely due to the fact that the project is completely open-source and community-driven, without conducting an initial coin offering (ICO) or receiving specific funding, except for small community donations.

However, Counterparty currently and always faced a lack of developers and infrastructure.

The most widely used tools are Jdog tools, which serve as the standard reference. Additionally, there are some marginally used tools like CasaTookan (an Ethereum/Counterparty wallet) and OrbExplorer that EverdreamSoft provide. Certain marketplaces, like http://scarce.city, and context-specific tools like the Rarepepe wallet, also exist.

Our position

After internal discussions, my position and EverdreamSoft's official position are as follows:

Counterparty is too small to afford a fork where two ledgers coexist. This would not only confuse the few users the project has, but also divide the already limited resources of Counterparty. Therefore, a fork should be avoided at all costs. I urge the community to remain level-headed and consider the greater good. Decentralized project governance without a leader is both strong and challenging.

I have great respect for Jdog's work. He consistently provides the protocol with robust tools, and we have collaborated multiple times. He has been incredibly helpful and his contributions to Counterparty are invaluable. His consistency has allowed our company to continue building on the protocol. From a rational standpoint, if we have to choose between a young community with no track record and someone with a long track record of delivering and maintaining a working architecture, we would choose the latter.

Nevertheless, it is great to see new developers joining the protocol. It is even vital. Moreover, for a decentralized project like
@CounterpartyXCP
, a proper governance system is necessary to make decisions and keep the community together, driving the project forward.

For the benefit of everyone involved, I suggest that we take a step back and allow a 30-day moratorium on the proposed counterparty-lib v9.62.0. If no consensus is reached within this period, an additional 30-day period for activating the fork should be given. I urge
@jdogresorg
to revert to counterparty-lib v9.61.0 until these deadlines in order to prevent a fork, or at the very least, prepare builders to choose their side and adapt their infrastructure while informing their users.

I put it in full

nitter doens't work for me

My two ghostface items seem to be there fine with playable video and audio

Everyone wants jdog to stop running his fork

It is chaos of his own creation

I personally do not feel I can trust him to do anything in good faith going forward

Is there other pro v62 ?

@yodark really admire your work; IIRC you were the first NFTs back in 2015??? Ages ago.

Adam and I have long been supporters of Jeremy and his work but as @hodlencoinfield said, this is a self-created problem with unfortunately potentially serious consequences. I would point out that Jeremy isn't the only active developer who's been around for a long time. @hodlencoinfield, @jp_janssen are both class of 2014, too.

The way he activated it shows bad faith, he gave zero activation time and forced it on everyone using his APIs

I wasn’t happy with the initial 30 day ultimatum but at least there was ample time to have discussion and update code etc

one small point - stamps do not store meta data on the chain they store actual image data in utxos

It was too fast true. But we need to put governance in place. We cannot afford to lose him as his contributions are very valuable

As has been written about at length in this channel, the issue (which Jeremy has surfaced and which I believe was sort of the 'point' of this hard fork) is that the community became overly-reliant on a set of tools provided by a single developer who now, objectively speaking, is attacking the network. Much of the damage can only be undone and mitigated by Jeremy, but beyond that the community can do two things: (1) provide competing tools that support the majority fork; (2) build some core functionality into the reference implementation, itself. Both are underway.

Here's the archive: https://jpjanssen.com/xcp-archive/full_xcp_archive_000d2a0ec32c9fc0f996693b77481f0b.7z

13 GB
13,614 images

These are collected from image urls in asset descriptions. The archive is important if imgur etc goes down. The archive was onchain hashed in 2022.

Note that many assets do not use url links. These are excluded from my archive. To save these you'd need to scrape specific archives like xchain, kaleidoscope etc.

How can you trust him again after this?

Let’s see how he reacts everybody can make mistakes

Sir we’ve all been asking him to turn off his fork and he refuses unless he gets his way

He is holding it hostage and everyone now needs to recognize that and route around it if counterparty is truly a decentralized protocol

Respectfully, there are mistakes and then there are network attacks. This is a network attack.

if it isnt decentalised its game over

This is a test of the protocol

This topic is awesome and productive, but is it really necessary 100% for every fednode on a counterparty protocol level to have this data? My view is no, also in the other dev chat there was just a constructive conversation about why bootstrapping is not ideal.

Makes sense as an option though.

Sure is and the great work being done here is inspirational

I’m a few msgs behind.

Yes everyone banding together in here is a very welcoming sight

not necessary for every fednode - but very helpful for anyone that wishes to run an explorer and contribute to community that way

bootstrapping as uncle roger says tastes of sad

It's this part that frankly makes me not envy Jeremy's position. AFAICT the entire technical community is not in support of 9.62, which means that it will be effectively his chain. He will bear more than an implicit responsibility for the chain if it continues to exist and economic value accrues on it; it will be, as people have joked, "jdogparty".

As the founder of a *decentralized* project, I can say that that is really an unenviable position.

I have many invested many hours of my time over the last 8 years as have many many others .. its not easy to figure out Counterparty let alone learn how to use it. Finding it was not as sold eg decentralised and running on a known "good" database was not easy - but its worth the effort to make it as it shoudl be

Remember that there is still only one BTC blockchain.

It was a temporary snafu not a current issue

Governance over someone else’s infrastructure? That’s a tough one.

exactly correct @mikeinspace. A critical service provider enabling a hard fork with 20 blocks' notice and upgrading his services to that hard fork wasn't a failure of governance; it was just a network attack.

Yeah there seems to be some spin in that this was a governance problem the facts are the only degraded service due to ASSET USAGE was xchain and not counterparty-lib

I thought we were getting somewhere last week when jdog admitted to this and asked for help

A lot in the community believe holding xcp gives you a vote (not helped by the fact that it’s stated in the documentation). At the end of the day, this isn’t a democracy.

Everyone was then caught off guard when he woke up Monday and decided to disregard everything he said prior and force his fork on everyone using xchain services

Since almost all txs valid on 9.61 are valid on 9.62 there's an argument to be made that you actually want the divergence to be huge so people know which chain they're transacting on.

(again: this is a big reason why the minority chain should change its tx prefix!)

Just not gonna happen.

I don't disagree but the the situation is absolutely ludicrous. the entire technical community has been cordial about this network attack by crypto standards; the level of spite is completely unwarranted by the circumstances

if users ping your server too much, you rate limit them or charge them. this is basic shit.

I think it’s a game of chicken and JDog has a non-zero chance of winning. Xchain is still very much what people view as Counterparty.

The way XChain is seen as Counterparty has been a long standing problem.

I try to point out its just a website people think its required for things like dispensers

He doesn’t want to run a minority fork. I think if this tactic fails he turns xchain into a BTNS explorer. There’s no way he capitulates at this point

There isn't some big philosophical difference between jdogparty and counterparty. going scorched earth because you don't know how to improve the performance of your php script is not a thing that's done.

This

This too

It's been always said Heavy is the crown (and was true) but that doesn't justify to exile the kingdom and force a new religion.

I have been using xchain apis all this time for the platform because they represented counterparty (for many years) and were available, after a unilateral fork that is not the case anymore. Time to build

Not bad

*HIS rationale behind the change…

Stamps and 721 transactions may be lumped together in jdogs mind/stats. To be fair, stamps (numbered collection by mike) are not using the counterparty protocol properly either. Namely by repurposing counterparty fields, ignoring counterparty fields and promising a future side key/index separate of counterparty. Code needed to implement stamps according to mikes way, should also be considered code of a different repository (similar to how jdog has his sql script on a his personal repo) and possibly remain that way in perpetuity.

I remember lurking when sog was new but I hodled too hard to participate. It is very neat to be in this chat with you now, I wish it were under better circumstances.

Nothing really uses CP “properly”. The founders never envisioned putting image pointers in the description field. That’s just as inappropriate as base64 data if you want to go down that path. FYI: JDog took the step to actually decode the base64 (which we are appreciative of) so we’ve all been “misusing” CP 🤷‍♂️

you cant have a open source permissionless system and then say oh but

CP has been misused since like 2015

Proper and valid are not the same

A lady vs a hoe

what is the proper way to use a permissionless system ?

Both can get the job done

are hookers paid for sex or to leave after ? its all subjective stuff

Yeah it’s for stocks remember

Xcp was originally supposed to be similar to the stock market and theres conversation about bootstrapping images of dickbutts becoming official protocols.

A slight return to core values would be nice.

The strongest of all values is that of decentralization

Jdog broke that with his fork

It should be outright rejected by anyone who values decentralization

I also asked a few times if there was a public stamp developers chat with no takers but each counterparty dev chat seems to get side railed with stamps requests.

I’m for these other projects but this chat is about counterparty development.

Stamps have been biggest counterparty usage this past year so is no surprise it appears in chats. It was pretended for a while that we did not talk about stamps in counterparty chat but cmon really

The same stamps devs too…

https://t.me/xcpdev/2666

projects are free to interpret data as they wish - one dev made a tracker for naka's yet counterparty sees no such difference between the original 300 cards

Lets use counterparty but ignore the owner and description.

Things get uglier as time passes. Is the nature of divergent ledgers.

We must take definite stand that the ledger, the consensus and decentralization respecters, Counterparty, is v9.61

This is what stamps is doing. Wfiw I’m also a big fan of named stamps, but not if you stamp devs are still pushing your indexer, because that would be incompatible and a covert fork.

Meaning the future open source stamps indexer for numbered stamps also indexing named stamps but in a way dissimilar to whatever counterparty protocol would be at the time.

After that, can we use the counterparty fields as intended and name them for their use?

Why do you care how someone else uses counterparty? they are free to make dickbutts with it

if they not whats the value prop?

This I like. I need to find that.

the 300 club is also known as

Meh. Nowadays a couple of people have good grasp of the code

And the original founder is back

pepe.wtf integrated the pfps

https://thenakamotos.club/

so using it that way is ok ? i find it interesting but its not using counterparty properly if you a purist

We must accept others are free to use permissionless systems in ways we dont agree

I dont care if they make dickbutts or socks. Protocol oriented fednode/API operator level discussion is what I’m shooting for here. I dont download a bootstrap of all previous email attachments ever sent just to fire up an email server. The protocol issues currently outweigh arweave vs torrent type discussion.

I too am here for the protocol decentralisation and have worked with Juan over many years - not as much as i would have liked but have been supportive of xcp dev since the begining

Is a feature, not a bug

That’s why we are here!

Correct me if I’m wrong, I just now first saw this club website, however it seems they are an explorer. Are they running an API tied to wallets or services creating transactions? That is a big distinction. Also if their project is nakas only, they wouldnt want dickbutts either.

I have argued this also. Don’t shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth.

The nakasclub dev doesnt seem to be in here you would need to ask him - all i know is they have isolated each naka and track it

The timechain is the canvas, CNTRPRTY is the brush. Let creativity flow

The answer is no. They are an explorer which is only part of the counterparty protocol stack. The equivalent of your TV.

Bob was the first person I talked by DM with help to setup a node. And maybe the first person that answered my first question in the “official” chat

I’m very grateful for his support, all the way when I was a noob

Stamps indexer (how we number things) has nothing to do with CP consensus. Just like SHITCOINCARD being Series 1, Card 3 is outside the scope of CP consensus

Stamps is counterparty succeeding

And the ‘stamp’ indexer will support ‘CNTRPRTY’ indexing also. It will help strip off the bulk in the current protocol stack, benefiting everyone

Is people building on top of Counterparty. Beautiful to see, and a great motivation to optimize the core protocol

I believe

I am a big fan of your work!

worth repeating. i am also very grateful for the effort you two have put in!!

Thanks to you Duncan! Without your support I would have quit… it has been so much harder than it needs to!! But now all is evident and the effort is paying off

I appreciate everyone who works on the open source code and within community that is counterparty. We are never all going to agree - we belive in rough consensus and running code

Yes. That would make stamps layer 3, xcp layer 2 and BTC layer 1.

And layer 3 is not counterparty.

Layer 2 can make provisions for layer 3, but call a spade a spade.

Fair

And src721 is a layer 4 protocol

I like this

Very much

Lol

I see src721 as nesting layer 3 inside layer 2.

Can’t stop laughing. Thank you sers

I never really thought of how the protocols stacked and for some reason, I find describing it in these terms very amusing

I do not meant to do that, I am just voicing my opinion.

I know not everyone shares my opinion - i felt crippling dispensers because of an "attack" was not cool. I would have redefined the word empty and been done with it

It just needs a meme with xzibit, and it’s perfect

We put your layer 3 inside your layer 2 so you can stamp while you stamp

All people seem to need data processing.

ttbomk, counterparty is the protocol, and the other projects are platforms that use it. i dont agree with the Layer 2 label, as it is not technically accurate in that the messages are nested inside bitcoin itself and not an external tech

XCP is layer 2 to BTC.

Tell me. Divisibility reset, when everything in the protocol are integers. Just change the arbitrary limitations against divisibles client side!

Stamps as a ‘protocol-cousin’ of counterparty is a layer higher than XCP but XCP would be layer 1 to stamps, if stamps were a protocol.

this gets deeper than i comprehend - i like the idea of being able to reset an asset if owner has full supply .. its like adding a new description in my mind but i appreciate on a code basis there are many ways to skin a cat

As a virtual application layer. Not like lightning, which is layer 2 in having 2 way transactions for chain settlement

XCP is burnt BTC - that education needs re enforcing in my opinion.

Its a fair way to bootstrap a protocol

Was fee based on maximum number of dispensés ever on the table? Less than 1k total, free, every one after that costs 0.001xcp each.

If you put a dispenser on an exchange address and want to distribute your token to a million users, you get to pay for it in xcp?

There can be more than two layer twos, ultimately determined by the user at layer 7.

i suggested this - and it was found to be "interesting" but it was already too late the fix had been applied without too much discussion

Sounds like an interesting proposal… I’d be interested to see it written up and possibly implemented in the future if the community agrees with it

And then came ordinals. Elevating satoshis

And I truly believe, one HUGE source of the xchain inefficiencies are root caused by how he deals with resets.

His implementation was: let’s make ALL divisibility calculations more inefficient to allow me to sell my asset names as indivisible

It lowered the bar for the sake of a minimal use case

Kinda seems like counterparty protocol updates need something like a structured bi-yearly release schedule rather than the 30 days for discussion and drop an update.

What proposal?

i suggested having a fee per dispense - xcp anti spam fee

i did not write a proposal

there was a dispenser "attack" some labelled it due to oversight on the definition of the word "empty"

I like that dispensers are BTC only. Is kind of the main point or not??

why not free for first 5000 an then xcp anti spam fee for successful dispensers

He’s talking about to mitigate large scale airdrops like putting 1 million dispenses on an exchange address

now you got to play cat n mouse to dispense 10,000 assets

if xcp is antispam then use it as antispam dont limit functionality because muh database

xcp is awesome for dex as i been saying but antispam is another valid use as per the protocol as it stands

we need review process too .. 5460 sats for dust was overlooked for a long long time

7800 dust too - thats 2 "typos" that resulted in a 10x of user costs

ok its more cost effective to have larger dust in high fee environment but thats a recent development i was consolidating multisig "dust" at 1sat byte for a while

I know this is probably taboo around here, but if there is a fee eventually added to numerics, it should go to a multisig that creates bounties for these types of things

The dust amount was high on purpose; to make it economical to redeem msig outputs.

ok for multisig ... 5460 dust could have been 546 for a long time that was overlooked

5460 was used in classic send - back then that may have been the limit i dont know was not here in 2014 i am 2016 entrant

i like sending "dust" with assets but it used to be required

yeah

I am not talking about dispensing xcp but using xcp as antispam to pay for a dispenser that is going to create a lot of database records

the xcp could be escrowed when a dispenser setup and returned if dispenses not completed .. i dunno say 5000 free dispenses and then 0.0001 XCP per dispense thereafter or something - the math needs looking at but paying 10XCP is a big antispam fee but not unreasonable for 100,000 dispenses

Looking at code history it seems like this is the case… we can ask now 🤓

something reasonable should have been determined before actions were forced on the community. IMHO this is one of his "features" (untested bugs) that needs to be remedied eventually.

Eventually sure, but I would caution any consensus updates in any time soon, it’s important we maintain consensus with 9.61.1

emphasis added

We should say v9.61. Or v9.61.X.

Non protocol changing revisions are allowed, and maybe, even required

yeah that makes more sense

frankly given how this hard fork was done I think it's safe to assume that while Jeremy may understand the business logic of Counterparty he doesn't understand the basics of BFT consensus.

Counterparty is beautiful because is a social contract more than anything

One of the biggest dangers was widespread ignorance and not caring about anything else than what “xchain” showed

I think this ignorance has been reduced greatly in the recent years and we have principles defined. From details of semantic versioning to the hashes

We are good, feeling much more optimistic today

Glad to hear it! Adam and I are both frankly blown away and pretty humbled that the community is overall so great and there's a fair number of technical folks building on Counterparty

We should make it clear that 9.62 does not exist. Xchain does not currently run a version of counterparty.
Hypothetically, if we eventually agree on the xcp fee, it will be impossible to activate to xchain's fork in the past.

yeah exactly

it was impossible the next block lol

correct, 9.62 is cutting off jdog's nose to spite jdog's face.

the issue of fees on numerics is *really* not very deep lol.

yeeep

🚀

Peter principle was evident over a year ago, two?. I'm glad that now more people than ever can see it. Too bad it came down to this

He knows what he is doing.

I just don't think jeremy is dr evil

At this point, we don’t have to know exactly why, the actions are unacceptable imo

i think he is a disgruntled developer who felt perhaps justifiably overpressured and underappreciated and so he did something impulsive without understanding how destructive it was.

I wondered a few days ago if it was a form of "tough love" from JDog which was fine when there was time to get used to it. Having it forced has made it even harder if not impossible to swallow

i think that's exactly what he thought it was

but consensus systems aren't normal apps

Can we sprinkle some of our recent love on this for the community?

nowt queer as folk

Right

Did this change since last discussed here?

From my perspective, the shitcoiners are here, and counterparty core devs will need to figure it out going forward, if this is a market they want or not...

my objection to numerics (and reason for the fork) is purely from a technical perspective... spamming txs lags xchain, when xchain lags, people lose funds (dispensers that say open when they are closed, etc), my support costs go up (everyone screams for help, etc), and ACTUAL damage is done, as scamming ensues and real funds are lost... XChain lagging comes at a high cost to the community.

Re-read that, XChain lagging costs come at a HIGH cost to the community... ie, people start losing funds!

Some in the community might choose the narrow view that this is just a problem with xchain parsing, however, that is not true, other projects in the space also have problems with this (see earlier tweet from spells of genesis founder).

The true issue as I see it here is that the counterparty API can not scale to handle tons of queries like xchain can, so community unfairly relies on xchain as a part of its infastructure.

This issue is actively being worked on by many devs (seeing talk, not code yet, but believe they are making real progress, and support it).

Is spamming numerics a serious issue, which has been ignored for far too long, that it demanded action (a fork)? From my perspective yes, some may not agree.

Is forking the ledger, putting everyone's money at risk, in a high stakes game of chicken, and burning the entire thing to the ground in the process in the best interest of the community? Absolutely not.

I feel we are very close to fork resolution, and it will be resolved in the next 24 hours.

This can also be done with a new transfer type that allows the asset to be moved from a wallet into a utxo, then all current psbt based trading infrastructure for ordinals can be used for counterparty.

For the purposes of this comment, ignore the defi stuff and just look at the bind/unbind

https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/cips/discussions/104

i pointed out xcp.dev was fine but apparently according to GMoney that was due to it not showing images

btns doesnt have images what are they smoking ?

i memebr JDog woke up and was upset XChain has been blown up by BTNS it was like a few days ago - days got long since

with no logicial consistency its brain damage

I can appreciate the technical reality, I really do… but for a moment can we appreciate that we’re talking about 40,000 assets over the span of a year when Ordinals is at 50 million and Bells Blovkchain from 2013 did 11 million last week alone.

There are some critical issues here if 40,000 assets brings this system to its knees

this is why i keep mentioning the dispenser fiasco - its the same thing - if its a success then its bad

Maybe CP is meant to just be this grail museum idk… sort of like Namecoin blockchain

i hope not - i have faith in the amazing Devs working hard here

https://i.gyazo.com/12a5ebae93e5ffdc226119d251ba686f.png

I think it’s all solvable, just might need a different setup than what Jdog and xchain was using

is that it solved?

‘Xchain back to 61 with no numerics showing , fork over’ - hope so

xchain back up in a bit on 9.61.1... no numerics support at all for now, perhaps in future 🤷️️️️️️

so he went back on his word .. he running with no fees on numerics

This removes any real technical problems with his decision- shame numerical won’t get to show but at least it’s a middle ground that means things are back on an even keel balances wise

i wonder what changed his mind.. If someone was able to reason with him well done!

He was upset and made some bad decisions. We’ve all done it. Perhaps not on that scale, but we’ve all done it

yeah for sure

Takes strong character take on all that criticism and still decide to be apewthetic instead Of headstrong , let’s be thankful

I have no ill will towards him on a personal level .. he always been very approachable individually. I think being sole pull pusher and wallet and explorer dev is too much for one person

*Party popper*

The new attitudes forming and building being done is very encouraging I think this has started something that will end up making cp stronger than ever

Kudos to all heads thinking about the problems

i think so too - great wake up call for anyone building on Counterparty too

The unforkening

stamp it

We need memes!

I had this loaded in a tx but managed to double spend it out of existence lol

wanna see the ewoks with mike in the 3p0 chair

i did that .. and i blame the mempool

His conscience

my guess is he wasn’t getting the result he wanted

but thankful we have a resolution for now at least

I think for me I made it via tx sign in FR but I don’t think it refreshed my history after it broadcast so I accidently reused inputs, so what I was doing to boost my fee resulted in cancelling my mint lol

@hodlencoinfield you two are catching up about domain + host transfers on friday, right?

Be nice to have a counterparty aware node with a very large mempool

that would make the most sense

Unlikely

I hope it’s me 😝

gah okay, not really sure what's next then.

I am thankful for everyone that was working on this including yourself

Awesome will give this a read. ping @teysol . @uanbtc will read that other CIP shortly, too, sorry, really just joined telegram to observe the state of counterparty, didn't expect the chaos of of the last few days.

You def got a show!

I'd just as soon have missed it and read the reviews in the paper the next day

It is heartening to me to see the community of developers come together like an immune system

again, one of the shocking things

'shocking' in the best possible way

the such a small project could withstand such a robust attack is nuts.

(again:: 'nuts' in the best possible way!)

Hopefully you have seen it has a passionate dev community that has desire to improve itself and a strong desire to improve the tooling, and there is ongoing innovation on the platform .. you observed one of the most emotional & controversial moments .. I think it was great to have you here at this time

the users love it too even if they struggle to fully grok it

its a fascinating thing

yeah I am sorry I was rude to people today. I was just worried they were going to lose money because they were focusing on the question of whether a fee on numeric assets makes sense.

@uanbtc @hodlencoinfield @reinamora_137 @jp_janssen @XJA77 etc. etc. I mean you guys need to give yourselves some serious credit. This was _very_ similar to the block size wars way back in the day; a single, influential developer and service provider tried to force a hostile hard fork on the community with *no* notice and appears to have failed.

the fee was distraction and did muddy the waters .. your level headed approach was awesome

imagine if blockchain.info had started running BCH the same day it was announced!

just catched up

great news dont have a divergent ledger no more

i think we passed the test we have to be very proud bc we haver not been falling in the trap

I have registered an extensive list of domains over the years related to CounterParty/XCP in hopes of giving them to a community organization to use.

If CounterParty.io is held hostage, we can use another domain. We'll have to.

for him to keep it would simply be another nail ⚰ for him,
And a mild speed bump for the community

Totally understandable 😆

we need to finish this development so there is a real alternative opensource soon

did you see the issues @teysol opened on GH?

no ser can you point me to them?

https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterparty-lib/issues/1299

https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterparty-lib/issues/1300

I have some also, using CNTRPRTY

@uanbtc i would like to contribute to the api. Can you add me to the xcp.dev repo?

What is your GitHub username?

DerpHerpenstein

Invitation sent

When the 40 club?

xcp.dev's UI reminds me of an OG bitcoin block explorer but I can't remember the URL...! Anyone know which one I'm talking about?

good to hear you guys have other domains. btw another way this hard fork was similar to bitcoin cash was on the domain side: roger ver owned bitcoin.com and used it to try bamboozle the world into thinking that bitcoin cash was bitcoin

in that respect of course this fork was significantly less hostile as its motives were afaict not primarily financial

Bitcointalk probably has a refreshing link or two.

https://t.me/Counterparty_Dev/9143 read down through robots.txt completion.

Periwig named stamps is where it’s going, they just don’t know it yet.

not that I see the bitcoin.com domain I just remembered blockchain.com added the visualization in their explorer (also for named stamps)

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/e25bfec9161b23ae87d00c6e441f15b319f6f8b1fcdfe297b648393b257f5fc8

was cool to see a tradblockexplorer display stamps

Holy cow thats awesome

so cool! 🤩🤩🤩

that's pretty damn cool

counterparty main chat is a dumpster fire

so will ask here

any discussion of dynamic fees?

I think any fee discussion right now is a bad idea

Too many emotions around the fork

i don't disagree but the peanut gallery is quite fixated on it

Then just ignore it lol

Let peanuts be peanuts

lol fair i just meant that _when_ the discussion has taken place in the past, have dynamic fees been part of the discussion?

Just caught up three days of messages here.

Phew, a lot to process!

Super happy and excited to see so much constructive discussion about the challenges and opportunities for Counterparty.

Also greatly heartened to see overall consensus, my views align with the majority here.

I will do my best to assuage fears and soothe nerves out amongst the groups.

Will sleep now and check back in about seven hours.

Yes, off and on, no full write up. If you search the other dev chat some users chatted about it on two occasions I think

I came here to say this.

Trolls sliding the forum.

GMoney and mike were asked to leave previous dev chats

They keep arguing the wrong topic

Ser we are not a fork, we are in top of counterparty using it in our way we don't broke consensus and we are using the protocol as it is just wanted to clarify

Stop selling me please

not entirely true, i booted them when their argument was distracting an actually, what i thought at the time, constructive dev discussion

I tried to help and I see your side. Be transparent.

I agree with this statement and your previous actions

the main counterparty chat has a long history of being a cesspool

easier to just ignore it

Juan, Bob, myself and Duncan somehow merged a few chats into this one because of those issues.

But the walls have eyes.

this chat is great, i hope it stays that way

i have participated to try n understand ... but words like "spam" n "exploit" are nonsensical - no errors have been seen due to stamps - it was a broadcast that caused a problem and is still a problem that needs fixing as i understand things

I had been reflecting, and I think I shouldn't have been giving my opinion on fees either way. I realize counterparty was running way before I was here, and while I don't really like mechanisms to burn/pump tokens, there were not any other incentives to developers the way it was deployed.

too much hero worship/hatred too, that bit about we believe in rough consensus and running code starts with "we reject" as i am sure you all in here know

If it were created now, I'm sure it would be done differently, but this is what it is

consensus formed exactly how it should in a moment like that

its pretty impressive really

I posted a screen shot to show I am working on stamps and dex - stuff takes time. A bit of me is I glad i cant work on it at the moment and am forced to use CP API

I can spell this issue out plainly, but have I tried to stay cordial and apolitical while guiding others to see what is happening without pointing out anyone else’s bag pump. Expect less self censorship from me unless devs for projects that came out in 2023 begin being transparent.

I am not going to waste my time on setting up my own fednode - i have learnt how to ... and when the time comes I am going to run a no bootstrap node with enhanced api's - its exciting times

Welcome! That was me @ 9.59!

Or 58? I’d have to ask Juan where it went sideways.

From v9.59 to v9.60

Super hard fork. Old nodes issuances lost

Wanna reslide the dumpster fire chat? Bring that back up.

Almost none in the blockchain, proving it was all centralized. I do have one issuance, will try to find it…

Well it is just a learning experience. Is being considered in all future conversations

im prety stock my cp node is very close to finish sync with no bootstrap and full in consensus with xcp.dev
Block: 799905 (8.81s, hashes: L:2a4df / TX:25ab3 / M:4046b)

Damn xcp.dev is awesome!!

Very easy to find looking at the blocks from that activation

https://www.xcp.dev/tx/9954084e74a8a45fc24982318fa634a8280a945ba548ef003b273120cc0ee407

damn it feels good to be a gangsta

yikes!!!!

i member

how long did this take end-to-end

Reconcile any others?

Don’t loose sight. This is a node he is referring to. Not the stamps product.

2 weeks more less

*interesting*. so no one was running a node other than jeremy, basically?

yeah, should be a few hours. hm.

@teysol ☝️gotta be some low-hanging fruit in the parsing logic

but could be less as this last days btc node was hitted by stamps indexer too

They don’t communicate so no way to tell. A crisis of authority.

im not using bootstrap

i dont think this is true - but if counterparty hard forks and everyone must hard fork to keep using it

sure, but juan said that almost no issuances were lost, which is somewhat remarkable. how long did the hard fork last?

its ongoing

?

as in we all on that fork now - you cant run a out of consensus node

well yeah every consensus change is a hard fork

im pretty confident we are all on 9.61.1 now tho

what i mean to say is that no one was running 9.59 nodes it sounds like

juan was

but “economic” nodes werent

_ah_

https://960.xcp.dev/

sorry juan not to discount your node lol

we were trying but upgrade is not like bitcoin where its optional

🙂I understand. Not criticizing. Was just trying to unpack juan's comment that almost no issuances were lost after a consensus-breaking upgrade from 59 to 60

@hodlencoinfield answered the question.

Joe, what other services besides xchain are running economic nodes?

scarce city

yeah he was the one that explained it when we questioned it

pepe wtf

rarepepewallet

emblem

that's great, so not overly centralized. cool.

and now stamps

that's actually some decent diversity for a project of counterparty's size

yeah and there is actually a large benefit to xcp not really being on exchanges because you dont have an exchange node in the mix

all the economic nodes are invested in the success of the platform itself

that is an interesting point. no mercenaries.

which has become the birthplace of nfts and the home to the early days of cryptoart