Happy?

Lets go and share some memes on main chat.

Bye

We're muted or banned for calling out BS.

Meanwhile @ChiefSamyaza peddles his rare dog project, going against his own rules

I can up to 300

So much time and energy focused on misinformation and hatred... I encourage you guys to get outside and touch grass. Have a nice day 🙂

nah i’m not selling

Were you talking to BRRR GUY here?

Spoken from experience

Let's recap

Counterparty had a consensus change with 9.61
That broke Counterwallet
You stepped down as maintainer without fixing it
You create a fork with 9.62

Now you've gone back to 9.61 with the new fork

🎓

Let's recap

Counterparty had a consensus change with 9.61
That broke Counterwallet
Javier and I proposed 2 solutions and PRs (code) for both solutions
Adam came back and promised to not force changes into protocol
I hand control of properties back to Adam as core dev
Adam shitcans CIPs repos, breaks fednode, and targets dispensers
Robby offers $2000 for counterwallet fix
I point out that we have PRs already for counterblock to fix issue
Adam closes counterwallet issue and PRs
Adam deprecates Counterwallet

... 9 months pass

Adam forces changes into new 2.0 release
Adam forks ledger with cp 2.0 release
Community requests dispensers to be restored
I wait 30 days for Adam to restore dispenser functionality
I release counterparty classic 9.62.0 with replay protection after 30 days

Not sure why I am wasting time writing this out... prolly just so it is logged in the chat history...

Everything I said is ll easily verifyable, but, i'm talking to ppl who are in the J-Dog hater room, and who spend all their time circle-jerking about how bad I am... So anything I say is gonna just fall on deaf ears, and be spun to be my fault, so kinda pointless to engage further today.

Have a great day 🙂

What happened @ 9.59?

Name calling is against the code of conduct I believe

Good thing you said you're signing off cuz it looks like you're typing

Cannot resist making more drama?

not sure what your referring to... that release was put out by John before he died... https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterparty-core/releases/tag/v9.59.0

if your asking what broke counterwallet... it was the 5-block dispenser close delay, which Javier and I detected after release, and submitted PRs and code to fix... which was ignored and closed by Adam 🤷️️️️️️

https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterparty-core/issues/1294

I remember now, this was one of the last good versions Juan and I used before things started changing rapidly.

What could have helped detect this pre-release?

maybe if you took more time to read and less time to troll, you would find the answers you seek

https://i.gyazo.com/d8077d7f8a0a0f5fc9f3eb7a59b2e64b.png

ah yes that’s right, you had no test suite

Maybe if you would spend more time coding and less time reverse trolling you would have a decent skill set by now?

The bickering merry go round is getting really tiresome — maybe those w beefs could work it out in DMs?

Ha haha

Isn’t it though !!
Your such a calm head and just a head down hard worker in here and I appreciate you
Very little shit talk too !! Any way I’ll shut up I’m no dev just a fan ! Of big brains lol 😂

looks like classic has been down for day 😕 no dev announcement? for awareness?

Onwards and upwards only, stay positive, good things will come 🎉

https://youtu.be/X7QKFsNWX7A?si=4JoM8SbyZ4zjvDoI

Dunno wtf ur talking about.

https://classic.tokenscan.io/blocks

https://public.tokenscan.io/

Nodes are up n have been🤷🏻‍♂️

100% agree and have asked for this place to remain for dev chatter only, yet other drama continues🤷🏻‍♂️

Will try to see if it dies down by just not participating (tho there is a whole j-dog hater channel I’ve never been in and it’s been non-stop hate/drama for months, even without my participation) … so doubt the drama will stop here… but I’ll try to limit my interactions here to dev only n see if that help 🤷🏻‍♂️

On my daily playlist friend !!

😍

Luv Santana

Nice play list ❤️

Your GitHub comment says you’ve been screaming for automatic testing, but this is the only comment I found.

You have been critical of these new releases not being tested enough, so I’m seeking a conversation of how to improve it.

Testnet has become prohibitively expensive at times this past year, but that’s because collectors have found value in it. Maybe we can create a new collection on there that focuses its releases on new features. The main idea being to pull in more people to run through the various actions while they can collect some niche testnet tokens.

You should note there is a difference between being critical of someone and trolling.

Wishing everyone peace and love today

Hi, all! I'm thrilled to announce the release of the new Horizon suite: https://horizon.market

This version of Horizon includes:

* Horizon Market: a PSBT marketplace for trustless atomic swaps between Counterparty assets and Bitcoin.
* An updated Horizon Explorer, which includes a lot of nice UI improvements for things like network stats and asset markets, and new workflows for purchases.
* A Horizon Wallet Chrome extension to work seamlessly with the market: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/horizon-wallet/bnmgkjlaommgappfckljlelgahnbngme?authuser=0&hl=en
* An updated Web Wallet: wallet.unspendablelabs.com

We're really excited about this release and would love your feedback. The workflows associated with atomic swaps are a bit unintuitive, so we've provided instructions on how to post and purchase listings on Horizon Market, which you can find here: horizonmarketinstructions.notion.site

Our atomic swaps market is priced differently some other PSBT marketplaces: you create an account and purchase either credits or an unlimited monthly subscription in order to post signed PSBTs to sell Counterparty assets on the orderbook. There are no fees and no account associated with purchasing assets listed on the market.

We've started an FAQ, which we will continue to add to and which you can find here: horizonmarketfaq.notion.site

We’ll provide updates in this Telegram channel and on the new Horizon Twitter account: https://x.com/hznmarket

Give it a try and let us know what you think!

So rather than building an api to store PSBTs swaps in counterparty (similar to how orders and dispensers are done), they choose to build a marketplace site n charge for listings vs doing it in a truly decentralized and trustless way where they charge/destroy some XCP for a listing fee (benefiting all xcp holders vs just benefitting Horizon)

Could have had a marketplace API at a protocol level where any wallet could create a PSBT swap n advertise it, and any wallets/sites/marketplaces could have pulled a list of open trades n listed them, a truly fair/open marketplace where anyone could participate, instead of a walled off marketplace to drive traffic / profit to Horizon.🤷🏻‍♂️

And one wonders why I was concerned about them getting VC funding would how drive their CP development towards profit for their company/products and not what’s best for the CP community (decentralization)

Of course, just my opinion…. Fine with them building stuff, but this could have/should have been built in a trustless way which benefitted the xcp community and holders, not just in a way that requires ppl to trust horizon and only benefits them financially🤷🏻‍♂️

Not looking to argue my viewpoint, and am sure to expect a barrage of cp 2.0 ppl justifying this move…. Just sharing my views.

Hope everyone had a happy holidays surrounded by their family and loved ones. 💕

Now back to lurking 👍🏻

You can build your grand vision on classic!

multiple products have implemented atomic swaps on counterparty:

https://xcp.ninja/ and https://firemints.xyz/ https://tapwallet.io/marketplace

And now horizon has a solution.

More are coming. That’s decentralization

Not willing to discuss it? Why post here?

I gave my view points and clearly stated that I feel this should’ve been done in a decentralized way and explained it should’ve been done on a protocol level with XCP being burned…. I see no point in debating implementations here…

And as many have requested, this is a channel for discussing development and development related problems.

I hope you have a great holidays vector👍🏻

What about it is not decentralized?

When there are multiple places to perform atomic swaps on counterparty

I would suggest you explore your idea technically first before telling people there is a way to do it. Maybe on classic?

Are you planning on implementing them in freewallet at all?

It requires trust… listings created on horizon are only available to be viewed on horizon… if I wanted to create a swap, I feel that swap should be available to all users of counterparty just like orders and dispensers are, so that it could be easily implemented into all counterparty wallets and not just be available in marketplace sites using their specific implementations which require you to trust them.

I’m not here to fight with you vector, simply giving my opinion that this could’ve and should’ve been done in a more decentralized way where everyone could participate in the process and use a standardized API at a protocol level rather than having a bunch of Waldorf garden marketplace, and framing that as decentralization rather than having one standardized set of protocols to create an atomic swap and advertise it.

I respect that you have a different viewpoint and you see a bunch of different implementations and sites as decentralization … I see a standardized set of API calls and storing all the data on a protocol level in a trustless way as better than a whole bunch of different implementations that require trust.

I’m done engaging with you on this subject now as I don’t want this to evolve into more classic versus CP 2.0 nonsense …. I was simply sharing my viewpoint.

Have a nice day

If there was an API to pull a list of all the available swaps that users wanted to do then yes I absolutely would have implemented this in FreeWallet… however since all of the swaps are held on individual marketplace, and the PSBT‘s are not available via a simple API call to the protocol…. There is no easy way to dump a list of everything that someone wants to sell across all marketplaces, so no, I have no plans to implement atomic swaps via PSBT at this time, which would’ve further enabled adoption of this new feature, simply because the way it was implemented, spreads out all of the possible swaps across a bunch of marketplace, and put them in walled Gardens, rather than centralizing them in one place and making it easy for developers to pull a list of every potential swap👍🏻

And no, I will not be adding this to classic. My focus is on XChain platform.

Look, you’ve already made it clear you disagree with the creators of Counterparty on their development of the protocol. You’ve gone so far as to run a fork of the network, which is the perfect platform for you to implement counterparty the way that you see fit.

Why are you here?

Imagine being the maintainer for year"s".... Sole maintainer, refusing to implement or develop such tooling...appearing "i could of done it better "

If you just want to get on a soapbox and not get any responses, make a blog post and turn the comments off

you started this conversation

Perhaps you should scroll up as I have said many times why I am here, to discuss counterparty development issues…. Since this is already been implemented, and there is no chance to change this implementation at this time, I am simply sharing my viewpoint.

I’m gonna shut up now so that you guys can continue your wall of support for CP 2.0 and hopefully this chat can go back to being about development and not about arguing over differing viewpoints👍🏻

You’re not discussing it though. You’re responding with passive aggressive gifs, as usual

You can implement your own solution. You made a whole copy of Counterparty to deliver on your vision. But you won’t

So why should anyone take what you’re saying seriously? You just complain and you don’t build

There’s not much to discuss vector. This has already been implemented, and I very clearly shared my viewpoint about how this could have been implemented differently.

Certainly didn’t say I could have done better or that my view is the correct viewpoint , just stated how it could have been done.

Great, we have all noted your disagreement in our folios.

right vector…. I haven’t built anything at all… no BTNS no XChain platform no tokenscan.io no freewallet.io, no fixing counterwallet…. I’m a total idiot who adds no value to conversations🤷🏻‍♂️😜

And this is why engaging here and trying to have authentic discussions with you is pointless .

Have a good day, sir

Great, instead of complaining about a project you have no control over, implement your ideas on one of your 3 networks running copies of Evan and Adam’s code

Or complain here and be prepared for people to respond to you

Vector, Jdog isn't the only person who feels this way, and obviously Jdog is going out of his way to give his feedback. Take it or leave it as you please. With how small Counterparty is, it is lucky you get feedback from devs and users at all.

Furthermore, how will this marketplace effect price history. Will there be an easy way for block explorer devs like Dan Anderson (xcp.io) to post all the sales history from Horizon?

How are users going to be aware of assets that have sold on XCP DEX, dispensers, Emblem Vault, scarcecity etc and their previous price data points?

i am not a horizon developer or a counterparty developer, you should ask adam. I am a community member

i shared an explanation of my understanding of the technical specifics of the drawbacks of committing psbt listings to the counterparty ledger and why there isn’t a strong technical motivation for doing that. psbts solve the trust issue without being entered into the ledger, and every single other issue, IMO, is just better solved by a public aggregator service or public database, including the ones you mention here. The actual completed atomic swaps are entered into the blockchain, so there is no mystery on the price history in BTC of Counterparty assets exchanged for bitcoin in atomic swaps, but the specifics of how to parse that from the ledger would be a better question for the engineers.

PSBTs are off-chain until the transaction is fully signed. At that point, the sale is public and recorded on Bitcoin forever like all previous Counterparty trades. So any marketplace will have open and free access to that information.

So we need to pay to sell our own cards on this new market place ?
Is that what I hear ?

yes, 2 dollars a listing or 20 dollars a month for unlimited listings (like a classified adverts service), or you could use firemints.xyz (JA can correct me on this if it’s wrong), which will charge the buyer some percentage of the purchase price i believe

Or you can not use atomic swaps

Or wait for another option that is cheaper than 2/listing

Craigslist

Oh fancy so artists/creators do all the work and others profit perfect
Are these market places advertising our work and doing artist profiles and pushing this out or is it just an endless list of info for people to scroll through ?

If the service doesn’t suit you don’t use it? You are profiting off of the development work of other people by selling your art on counterparty. It’s a mutual relationship

Cody on Craigslist has a nice ring to it

This stuff is difficult and time consuming to build and not everything can always be free

all of these people are educated and experienced professionals

Hahaha sounds creepyish lol

I have no doubt it’s difficult to build for sure 👍🏻
Code is hard I hear lol 😂

Cool, so you understand why people might want to be paid for their work, just like you want to be paid for yours?

How do we expect anyone to build on CP if they are not allowed to make money?

How do we expect anyone to be able to market their product with no money?

I don’t know why we would prefer the money to go to miners vs the people actually building the marketplace supporting the community.

If they are marketing it out to the world then yes of course that’s fantastic!!

Well the more users they attract, the more money they make

Obviously they will want to market it

Ya I can’t wait to see the marketing push

Do you feel like a service is only worth paying for if they promote your art?

No if it works would be the most important part I would imagine

And so can we choose what to be paid in ? As long as it’s an xcp asset ?

Servers have to stay on, active maintenance of node software, updates supporting new tooling, - marketing is 1 variable

Yup makes perfect sense

when you sell assets on horizon market and firemints.xyz you are paid in bitcoin

I’m most annoyed that these guys work their asses off while most of us do nothing and all anyone can focus on is a $2 fee lol

Obviously that's the incentive to market. Increase user traffic. Which entails artists benefiting with exposure

Horizon and fair mints are the two places ? Or is orbital in there too ? With this

Fairmints is not an atomic swap market, firemints.xyz is

i think xcp ninja also allows psbt listings

Literally anyone can build their OWN marketplace and make it free.

i took a quick look at it but i am not sure where the market is

i saw how to list psbts in the wallet but i don’t know where they show up yet

I’ll have to go try to use it I guess that’s the real test of things !
What’s the best place to go ?
Best link for setting up a ? What do we call it listing ?

horizon.market or firemints.xyz

You’ll need a wallet browser extension

I haven’t used it yet

Those two only so far
Orbital is doing a similar thing but mainly with. Bit crystals I think

yeah, i’m not sure about all the tools out there, happily there is a lot of active development

The liquidity is blended into the Dispenser orderbook. Some of the Buy buttons have a red atomic overlay. Those are psbt listed. But yes they could use a filter to sort those out

ohhh i see

do you operate that service?

I really like the idea of picking our xcp asset to be paid in ! That would be cool

Download Spells of Genesis on iOS and Android. Support Shaban and the XCP SOG eco-system!

No, but use it often

They also have fairminting of stamps

yes you can do that on the dex or with fairmints (once there are services that support commissions, coming soon ™️)

Artist creates a stamp asset, and community dictates the supply.

Atomic swaps are specifically for Counterparty to bitcoin liquidity. There are awesome trustless solutions for trading between counterparty assets already, where all you do is pay a miner fee and open an order

Scarce, Emblem, etc… all charge fees

Why should Horizon do it free? Because they work for free for CP. Ass backwards.

VC funded?

lol why is having funding a bad thing?

Not saying it is but suggesting that profits come from other places than profiting directly from users.

Fck the banks.

Let them send more.

Who are they suppose to profit from if not from users?

Yea, agree, but just cause your a VC doesn’t make you some evil bank

Indeed, the VC's need the profits now

No they don’t, VCs wait years and years for a return

Do you really think the pricing is unfair?

To me it seems very low

Agree

I'm not upset about fees, just suggesting that profits come from different places.

Who even says they profit at all?

Yeah i really can’t imagine they’re taking a salary at all, from the number of names i have seen on commits i think they employ at least 4 or 5 people full time outside of themselves

They take a risk, it may or may not work. Go build your own free swap marketplace lol

Didn’t we have orders before !?

yes, but there was no trustless way to exchange between counterparty assets and bitcoin

now there is

Hmm

Bottom line is people are acting like Horizon has some monopoly on the market because they are the core devs instead of saying thank you

They don’t, anyone can disrupt their $2 fee by building their own swap market

They weren’t even the first or second to do it. They did the protocol work and took months before launching a product

actually when adam addressed the funding in a telegram comment he even said he put in his own money to pay developers

And this is the person people are giving a hard time about 2 dollars a listing or 20 dollars a month lol

Yup, they are getting hate because they work for free on CP

If I built this marketplace and charged $2, no one would be hating on me

one hundred percent, there have been multiple new platforms that have launched since 10.4 went live, and they all charge fees, and everyone just woke up now

But let’s be real here, it’s only a couple people, not the entire community

totally

Stop pushing the narrative that they work for free on counterparty like they’re doing it from the goodness of their hearts

When they collected funds from the community to do counterparty development and then two when those funds ran out, they went and got $630k of VC funds…. And we’re not transparent with the community that counterparty development was now being funded by VC funds.

I know you like to look at them as benevolent dictators who have come back to save counterparty, but the fact is, they are doing this because they are being paid, they are being paid by both community and by VC funds, and it certainly seems to me that certain features are being implemented in a way which further drives centralization and users towards for-profit products, and makes the playground much less understandable and accessible to end users and developers…. I am all the only ones benefiting here are the developers.

I’m not opposed to people earning money for their work, however I am opposed to purposely limiting how functions are implemented into counterparty in order to force users to try to use a fee service by the same developer .

As I said earlier, this could’ve very easily been implemented on a protocol level, where all the PS BT’s were stored encounter party and available for all developers to pull a list of possible swaps ….. This would mean that all the counterparty marketplace would be able to see and use all the available swaps…. The exact same way that counterparty sites can pull a list of all dispensers and all orders…,

However, in this case because Horizon would like to gate keep partially signed Bitcoin transactions and keep them within their wild gardens so that they can profit, we now wind up with a bunch of different marketplace, all with their own list of available swaps, making it much more difficult for any one website or Wallet to see exactly what is going on across the whole counterparty ecosystem.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that even though they know they could have built this in a truly trustless and decentralized way , they instead chose to build it in a way, which requires trust, and centralizes atomic swaps in a bunch of for-profit marketplace rather than building it into the protocol in a fair decentralized trustless way, and then building market sites, and having everyone compete in their own ways.

We already had the ecosystem getting fractured with having to track sales on dispensers and orders and having to track items for sale via emblem vaults on opensea and superrare and other Ethereum marketplaces…… this change just further spreads out counterparty assets into more wild Gardens, which makes it more difficult to have global adoption….

Frame it however you want and say oh there’s four or five different marketplace sites now so this is what decentralization looks like, however as an end user and as a developer having all of this data fragmented in a whole bunch of different marketplace sites makes it very difficult to aggregate all of that data and display it to potential buyers and users in a way that makes sense….. and instead forces the users into little wall gardens where they have to use those wild gardens, preferred tools, and where gatekeeping of transactions is done…

Going back to lurking now… hope everyone has a nice day😊

here’s what i wrote in the main counterparty for the technical motivations for why psbts aren’t in the ledger

correcting myself - i am wrong, committing both the listing and the order to the ledger are both big txes. so the difference is two big txes versus one big one.

But the cost calculation is a bit more complex than that, because there are far more listings than completed orders. the other thing is that typically atomic swap listings would have smaller quantities because they don’t allow partial fills. So while you might put out a dex order for 1 million pepecash and let people buy what they want from it, if you were to list one million pepecash on a psbt market you’d have to find a buyer to buy all of it at the same time.

instead you’d probably make, let’s say, 10 smaller listings. if, as a seller, you paid a big transaction fee for every single listing, that is a lot more friction and there is no possibility for an unlimited listing subscription like it is possible to get with horizon.

so you effectively end up with reduced liquidity.

It is still possible for another service to come along and create a database of PSBT listings that marketplaces can pull from, there is just no strong reason for that database to be on the blockchain. you would just be using the bitcoin blockchain as a really slow and expensive database and not getting the cryptographic and trustless benefits of it, which are already completely provided by psbts

You may disagree with those technical decisions but insinuating it was done for personal profit is going a little far.

Protocol level would require a tx fee to list?

yes

Or are we sharing a centralized database run by X?

And price discovery and liquidity would be severely hampered by that

you might even say you are pushing a narrative by saying what you are saying

Yeah, some transactions are big and so an additional fee is charged to store those big transactions….. MPMA sends are larger transactions therefore they require more bitcoin….. dividends are also big transactions therefore they charge a bit of Xcp…. Same with sweeps they are also big transactions that can write a lot of data to the database and therefore charges small XCP fee…

Saying that you can’t do PSBT on a protocol level because the transactions are big is ridiculous ….. could have very easily charged a XCP fee, which would benefit all XCP holders and made the supply go down with every PSBT transaction….. instead they decided to implement it in such a way that fees are collected directly by their company and their wallet versus how things have traditionally been done, which is when transactions get big you charge a bit of XCP.🤷🏻‍♂️

We all have different viewpoints vector… frame that whoever you want🤷🏻‍♂️

No one is saying it can’t be done.

It is more expensive and slower and serves no cryptographic purpose. If a central database of atomic swaps is desired, what is the motivation for it needing to be on the bitcoin blockchain?

Requiring a tx fee is horrible when it can be free

You want to have a technical discussion, let’s do it. let’s weigh the pros and cons of these approaches Jeremy

It’s not free though (Xcer) as you have already been told Horizon charges a per transaction fee or a monthly fee…. So a fee is charged either way it’s just whether that fee goes to benefit the counterparty and XCP community or whether or not that fee goes to benefit a for-profit company (Horizon)

It can be free. If you want free, go and make a free one

Even like game mechanics, etc.. so much stuff that can be built the way it is designed

Why would you ever hardcode a fee when it can be free

If all listings have to be committed to the ledger, that will pose a lower bound on cost and liquidity forever

A fee that doesn’t benefit anyone (miners fee) in the community

The reason that this is different from the DEX:

- partial fills are not possible, so generally listings will be smaller and more numerous
- the transactions containing the listings are much larger, and therefore more expensive

I’ve already told you, Hector it’s been implemented. There’s no point in trying to go back-and-forth with you right now about changing this as it has already been decided by the horizon, developers how it will be implemented and has been implemented.

My focus is on building the X chain platform and not wasting much time here in pointless, circular conversations… even if we played this all the way out and got you to determine that maybe this could have and should have been done in a decentralized way, which benefited all SCP holders it still would not change things going forward, what’s done is done, so continuing to have any kind of technical discussion with you on this is kind of pointless.

We both know it could have been done very easily, but a different route was chosen, and I don’t wanna waste any more time going in circles ….. again frame that however you want, as you always do… off to get some coffee and then back to coding👍🏻

why start the conversation? i'm curious

I know you forwarded that big wall of text from the Counterparty Classic chat

I was simply sharing my opinion vector much like you always share yours…. At no point did I say I wanted to debate this or go on a full technical conversation about this as we both know it’s pointless and will not change anything.

At the end of the day, this could’ve been implemented in multiple ways and the way that was chosen. I disagree with, as it benefits horizon more than it, benefits, XP holders and users. That is just my opinion, and I am not looking to debate with you.

Who are you looking to debate with? why write all of this

why not just write a blog post?

Perhaps read…. I said I was sharing my opinion…. Much in the same way that you share your opinion when you forward post and say this is great. I really like this functionality…. People are entitled to share their opinion without having to defend and go on circular technical pointless conversations.

I know you don’t like being called a troll, but it’s abundantly clear to me that all you really engage with me for is to try to waste my time and distract me from doing work …. If you are who you claim to be and are a high demand programmer, you should know the value of time and perhaps understand your time would be better spent coding rather than arguing with people you disagree with… differing viewpoints are fine and everything does not have to boil down to some winner versus loser right versus wrong conclusion.👍🏻

Perhaps try building something for counterparty as I have versus just sharing your opinions 🤷🏻‍♂️

i don't really care if you call me a troll, i am talking about development decisions in the development chat and seeking to discuss technical reasoning. if that's not your thing no problem

The time to have technical discussions about how something could be implemented would be before it is implemented….. this is why we had the counterparty improvement proposal process and had conversations with the community out in the open in the past…. Versus shit, canning the community process, driving all conversations to GitHub to limit conversations to just developers, and then announce on high what the new features of counterparty will be with very little discuss discussion.

As I said, the codes already been committed decisions have been made, and things will not change so continuing to go in circles about which solution is best is a pointless mental exercise at this point, as it has already been decided by the VC back court developers that they are for profit company getting the fees is better than doing it in a decentralized way which benefits all XCP users and holders🤷🏻‍♂️

you're discussing it a lot though?

And to be clear, I saw absolutely no mention or discussion of the possibility of having partially signed Bitcoin transactions included in the protocol at all…. Simply horizon, deciding they wanted to have a closed garden marketplace and extract fees from users, and therefore that is the solution that was put forward versus having a conversation about how to build things in a truly decentralized way with a supposedly community driven protocol.

So you see this conversation was purposely kept away from the community so that it could just be announced by horizon and forced on the community as a great thing rather than having conversations about how it could’ve been implemented in a more fair way🤷🏻‍♂️

OK, sounds like you're committed to ascribing bad intent to it rather than discussing legitimate technical reasons.

Coffee and code time…. I hope you have a nice day Vector🧘‍♂️

Sounds like you can’t read as I’ve stated many times that having a circular technical conversation is pointless at this point because decisions have been made…. And I’m just sharing my opinion on what it looks like from the outside since there were no conversations about how to implement this in a fair way before it was announced by the horizon, developers that they had made a decision.

L8r

insert last word here - see you next time

This also becomes an attack vector, as orderbook is a defi tool storing psbt transactions...the scenario what if someone decides to fork, what happens to all those pre exiting psbt ?

Psbt orderbook on the protocol level is highly flawed.

A Meta protocol like Mintify that has built a "decentralized ordebrook" that Explorers and markets can port over liquidity- this is valid

I agree, they are probably losing money at the moment.

If we could see their accounting books (it would be unreasonable to expect this), I'd speculate it will take a long time and a lot of effort to get things to the point to where the income from fees exceeds the up front development costs *and* the running costs.

At the moment, I would gladly wager they are *losing money* and not *profiting*.

if i put up an ETH NFT order on OpenSea it shows on all ETH marketplaces - i pay the fee because i dont want it just shown on OS only

why would Counterparty not do it in a similar way? - why would you want to use Horizon to set up a PSBT order and have it not show on Magic Eden (if they implemented PSBT with XCP tokens)

Why would you want to create a scenario where your are forced to pay a BTC tx fee to list?

why would you create an atomic swap order if it wont be seen on all marketplaces?

Listings can be aggregated

You limit a ton of future use cases by forcing a tx fee to list

why would a dev do the work to aggregate prices on all marketplaces

instead of a simple API call

To attract users

Bro, your literally advocating to require to pay a tx fee that is highly variable in price that could cost $40 in the future

lol it cost $40 to send Bitcoin in 2017

Are you going to use the site that has just 1 listings or a site that aggregates all of them

the site that aggregates all of them, so far its only xcp.io that does that

Ok what’s your point

Your advocating to pay a tx fee when it’s not required

but to ask Dan Anderson to now aggregate all possible Atomic Swap marketplaces? sure he's gonna wanna do that?

I could build that shit in 24 hours lol

Opensea, super rare, majiceden, rarible, binance, okx, all compete for liquidity

All you do is scrape and list

Im simply pointing out that all other xcp functions require a btc tx, why the hell would we care if another is needed. We pay $20 plus to vault to emblem and some ppl paid $150+ in 2021 to list during high fee times

Why would we want to pay a fee when it can be free

im simply saying that the implementation of this to require marketplaces to code it all and not be a protocol function is the first ive seen any xcp function be implemented that way

lol it aint free, remember "you can go code a free marketplace if you want"?

Yes exactly you can

as can you

I know

bet you a FREEDOMKEK you wont

go

The orderbook is a defi ledger providing a buy/sell requests. This is an extremely fragile and sensitive ledger with users assets/requests.

but if i list on one, it shows on all

And image if it was forkable... the way the current fork has opperated.....all the sell requests being duplicated,

it is always going to be forkable..... don't see your point here

Not if it's not a public database.

Not if there is encryption on the request of the psbt, protecting the marketplaces orders.

Marketplaces have been existing...this isn't new theory

Majic eden, ordinalswallet, unisat, okx... all compete for user traffic and liquidity

again. if i list on ME it shows on OS

they dont need an "ETH market aggregator"

That’s an emblem thing?

what's odd is there are seemingly two dominant discussions

- people talking about art

- people talking about nuanced technical counterparty development issues

What is the primary use case of counterparty - what need is counterparty seeking to serve (i've been here for a long time and have 0 clue)

They are in open collaboration

Just a quick search

They share data

Yup, aggregating each other

on or off chain?

if i list an XCP order with Horizon - it shows on RPW and FW

what is the point of counterparty?

just don't understand why you would take this away

Because it’s onchain

exactly.

Because it’s is free

"Aggregator
Magic Eden's Aggregator allows users to view listings from other marketplaces and find the cheapest listings for a specific collection. "

Without doing too much research

Why do you insist to send our community money to miners

so will Horizon include an aggregator of Firemints / Fairmints atomic swaps?

and aggregate ME listings if that happens too?

This is day like 5 man

If data is shared.

Give it some time

Firemints had mentioned they are attempting to engineer something

what are the reasons to share? what are the reason not to share?

If they receive collaboration it could be something

Why anyone would want to pay a Bitcoin tx fee is so stupid, I’m dropping out of this convo

👋

Competition for the purpose to exist

They share to partner. And they refuse to compete.

The reason that this is different from the DEX:

- partial fills are not possible, so generally listings will be smaller and more numerous
- the transactions containing the listings are much larger, and therefore more expensive
- psbts already solve the trust issue

but trust switches to trusting the marketplace to show me the aggregate of all possible open orders?

vs just pulling it from onchain data?

and i have no idea what question you are responding to.... what are the reasons marketplaces will share data and what are the reasons they wouldnt?

If horizon wasn’t charging $2, this convo wouldn’t even exist lol

this isnt about the fee xcer

im not Cody

Everyone would say how awesome it is to list free

scroll up and review my original question

this is a different definition of trust. Trust between buyer and seller - that if you buy something you’ll get what you buy. Is different than “did i check all the listings and get the best price?”

is this going to make Dan have to work way harder to aggregate all sales data for XCP assets?

if people are buying without price history theyre.... uhm.... low IQ

yeah, that’s why i am saying the trust isn’t ‘switching’. psbts solve this problem: am i going to get what i bought?

why would they buy if it they don't have education on market price? especially for assets that havent been sold in a few years?

seems like you are expecting ppl to buy without a good knowledge of the price history of the assets

Market places share data- friendly, collaborative devs, partnerships, exposure.

Markets don't share data - competition

yeah, low liquidity assets are difficult to price

this is true whether you use the order book, a dispenser, or an atomic swap

well if the block explorer is showing you all possible data (xcp.io) from all marketplaces.... seems way more legit does it not

and to circle back to my original question

Mintify has mentioned their interests, and they are a multichain, multi protocol, price Aggregator and orderbook. If they are intending to support the assets, this would be for them to farm and study

how hard is it going to be for a dev to aggregate all marketplace data? will marketplaces be incentivized to share that data?

Patience.

who can answer this?

psbt listings aren’t consensus critical, and it’s a reasonable choice to not make them consensus critical, because that comes with significant drawbacks. we will see what markets emerge

This ai can scrape entire sites in minutes

lol ive been patient for a while, im simply asking if this new non protocol implementation (first of its kind) will be easy for new and old devs to deal with price history

price history is on the blockchain for executed swaps

but not open orders?

how does OS and ME share "buy orders" that havent been matched yet?

They probably use an off chain api between them

Engineers are studying. Api being built. It's early in some terms.

is it not onchain? do i not send a tx out on ETH for a buy order that hasnt been matched yet?

perfect! thats why im asking these questions

if collectors cant see price history they will have less inclination to buy

and if devs cant easily integrate it, why would they try?

price history is visible. A listing that hasn’t executed is not a sale price

so how is it on ETH i can set on offer in WETH on an asset on OS and have someone fill it on ME?

why would we use a different system with XCP?

You know has less inclination to put stuff on shelves for buyers….People who have to pay fees to list

It’s more reasonable to compare atomic swap markets on bitcoin to other markets on bitcoin

the technical details matter

ok Xcer no one cares about fees, i never cared, have Horizon make their bag i dont care

i care about transparent price history

I care about fees

proud of you!

Entire protocol activity is basically dependent upon fee cost

If the BTC fee is $400 in the future, will we be able to trade anymore with any activity?

eh, its reasonable to say most users who will be interested in buying xcp assets have probably used ETH, SOL, ordinals etc and will be used to scanning markets the way they are used to

Will people drive less if gas is $20 a gallon

The biggest threat to CP is high fees

peak 2021 it cost $150+ to list on OS using emblem.... if you are selling for 1000's nobody cared then

Notice that the broadcast doesn’t occur until all parties sign

If your selling for $1ks, ok

ok, so ordinals does it that way - your point is they are successful and didnt do it the way ETH did?

it’s a different blockchain

i don’t know the details of how it’s done on magic eden, i am just saying what has been done on counterparty is well tread in the bitcoin space

?

meta protocols backed by the security of BTC transactions - n00b

counterparty can be used in whichever way users want. When Evan and adam created it, NFTs didn’t exist. They were invented on counterparty because of the capabilities of the network

I think this has more to do with the lack of real smart contracts on Bitcoin.

they existed, but they were called something else (either Namecoin domains or XCP tokens).. wasnt until JPJA locked OLGA as a 1/1 that technically "NFT's" were invented

are XCP DEX orders not considered smart contracts?

kinda fit the boat for me

you could consider the entire XCP protocol a smart contract

if you want to hit it from that direction

who is the user?

As the nation states, major corporations etc. move into BTC and start to promote it as a reserve asset and "digital gold," they will most likely intentionally make it too expensive to use for ordinary payments, small sales, etc.

They will tell us to use stable coins for small trades/purchases —- while making it illegal to use algo based stable coins, and insisting that stable coins must be backed by US treasuries.

This will funnel money back into the US treasury market.

~~~~~

Sorry for dropping the conspiracy theory here, but I rather doubt all of the gov't and big corp interest in using BTC/stable coins arising at the same time is organic or a coincidence.

like water?

Using that logic, There’s no reason devs can’t embed the psbt signature and price into a cp broadcast

On chain orderbook is certainly possible

tell me more

wish this was discussed in more detail earlier (as jdog stated) but here we are

if there is no user, what the heck are u doods arguing about

You need the utxo info, the price and the signature embedded in a broadcast

Then anyone can reconstruct the psbt

but Xcer will get mad cause you need to use a BTC tx to publish it

No one said it was impossible, just that it’s slower and more costly, and has drawbacks specific to psbt listings.

- Partiall fills are not possible which means a lot more listings relative to dex listings
- The transactions are bigger and more expensive

scroll up and figure it out

With this model, if you want to cancel your order you need to move your utxo

and this is why you are all arguing in circles

why not implement both? onchain data of all tx's and open orders and marketplaces not using it if they dont want to?

Psbt based trading allows us to be compatible with current ordinals infrastructure. With some light dev work its possible for them to support utxo based cp assets.

who is it for?

ok. how easy will it be to take the information of COMPLETED tx's? .... sounds like you can just scan on-chain for those is what im hearing...

but sounds like there still is no way to find info for uncompleted PSBT's and it will only be marketplace specific? - which apparently Vector says ordinals does anyway.... but why not implement it in a similar way to WETH offer on ETH

There are thousands of people holding cp assets?

when you seek to develop something - is this what you say to yourself ?

you know what, ill just wait and see - hope success for all of you, simply asking about how much more difficult it will be to aggregate all open and complete orders because this implementation is the first to not be protocol specific and not rely on XCP API

i'm not joking

you guys are mired in shit

which seems like a very reasonable question imo - like base level simple question

Correct. Once a trade is completed, a cp send from utxo to utxo occurs. Looking at those transfers for a sighash single anyone can pay will give you the price paid

the sale is a utxo cp send, and it is part of the protocol

but the open order non-complete is not

contrary to every other xcp function

dispensers open (not filled) - easy to ping with API.... XCP DEX open orders are the same... etc

Yeah I see what you’re saying. I would say it’s pretty trivial to encode the data into a cp broadcast if anyone wants to have an on chain orderbook

also i could just leave this up to Dan or Al or other block explorer devs to figure out.... all started with.... will that process be hard for them - or more difficult than before with literally every other xcp upgrade

if it will be difficult, does that not de-incentivize them to code the aggregate price history?

would they also not be taken slightly off-guard to now integrate data in a "non xcp standard" way (which before is just using the on-chain OP_RETURN data and XCP API)?

the reality is a technical decision was made by the maintainers of the protocol and there is both good motivation for it and strong precedent for it.

the benefits:
- less transaction friction in the form of fees for listing and delisting, which should overall translate to greater liquidity
- this also means easier price discovery. listed it at the wrong price and you have no takers? no need to pay two large transaction fees to delist and relist
- because atomic swaps are all or nothing, the average listing size will be smaller and there will be more listings

The downside is that psbt listings are not committed to the bitcoin blockchain and therefore additional tooling needs to be built by people other than the counterparty maintainers to perform listing aggregation

This is a reasonable technical decision, and it’s also reasonable for you to disagree

what’s not, in my opinion, reasonable, is ascribing nefarious intent to something that is standard in the space and has strong technical motivation even if you disagree

wen did I ascribe nefarious intent

Maybe not you, maybe just jdog. Basically saying the only reason to do it is to get rich off 2 dollar listing fees lol

k

This is very important to note, especially considering Counterparty’s binding unbinding capabilities.

What would happen if I listed 1 PEPCASH for 69420 sats, but no one buys it. Later, I unbind it and bind a RAREPEPE to the same UTXO. Now anyone with that information could complete that trade.

Unless the same UTXO cannot be reused to bind tokens to? I don’t think that’s the case though.

Counterparty has had a lot of OTC trading, which are not reflected in anyway on any sale price history.

PSBT is an OTC super power

there a way to reserve a PSBT for a specific buyer? (Reserved) .. like OS and other marketplaces offer?

Yeah, i believe so by setting an address that needs to send the BTC

that protocol level or a marketplace thing?

confused on where protocol ends and markets and block explorer devs code begins

Binding the UTXO protocol level protocol I assume...

and then dealing with that up to the community/devs/etc to decide? But seems basically on track with how ordinals are treated using the signed txs?

It’s funny to say no one cares about fees, when there is a fork due to 2 tx fees - an now that maintainer is arguing that users should be forced to commit their PSBTs onchain

It’s a Bitcoin transaction that the protocol will recognize. I don’t see any need to make it a protocol specific thing to be able to reserve a trade to a single address.

Requiring PSBTs to have an onchain tx for the protocol’s sake would have been a huge misstep.

Plus, it would add bloat

won't speak for him but reading his unity token post it also has a lot to do with removing things like CIPs and many other philosophical and societal norms previous devs used to come to at least some consensus

Regarding the protocol level on-chain PSBTs... I think in my view, it's not just the process it was laid out or the lack of discussion on how the community could implement...

In the past there was a deep level of discussion on the various forums and GitHub discussions pages... And I think the philosophy usually was centered towards using the protocol to benefit as many opinions and builders interested in coding around the proposals on Counterparty.... Again I'm not trying to speak for Jdog but in my research with earlier years, lurking for previous updates there is quite a change to how things are implemented

Furthermore the most heated discussion I feel personally did not have consensus was changing dispenser functionality before implementing atomic swaps...

The majority of the community who discussed this issue wanted to hold off on changing dispensers....

Cornholio it wasn't just "2 tx fee change" it was how the residing community was treated and how much of us did not think forcing those changes so fast were necessary...

It was not just the dispenser change, it was HOW they (Adam and his new peeps) convinced it was absolutely necessary for PSBT and atomic swaps to work... It was a general break in years of a process of updating the protocol put into practice by Devon Weller, continued with John Villar and still upheld in the same way through Jdog ....

It's not as simple as you make it. Glad to forward you all the GitHub pages where it really started.... In my opinion them shitting on and throwing out CIPs and the CIP process and removing JPJA as the CIP editor really was a symbolic power move to the existing community

But anyway. Cool. Reserved PSBT would be cool. Very needed and asked for a few times in the past

I expect vector to come at me with points like - Jdog was a dictator - bring up other past things - say deferred or unimplemented protocol CIPs were pointless - etc etc

Just know from me to you, I am quite sickened with how little respect Adam had toward that process and how this all played out and not much can change that at this point

but yeah cool new features, pump me bags or whatever

and upon further more thought Big Picture style thought on the matter...

Maybe that is just the story of Counterparty... Many features and culture and viewpoints on what Counterparty should be used for died with Devon Weller giving up Lead Maintainer.... Stock market, betting, rock paper scissors on chain etc ...

And after John Villar passed away many cultural and significant customs, culture, governing style in that bear market era also passed along...

You get the point.

Maybe each time a human societal governing body over this protocol changes, some sort of culture dies with it each time.. and some enthusiasts leave and some join both for varying reasons

seems importance and consensus in each era is set aside for what seems to be the most poignant at the time... And of course that is a cherry picked way to view it in some sense... Foundations have failed, ideas and companies have lost a lot trying new things ... Just riffin now, but point is imo with CIPs and how the entire stupid tg drama played out... Something cultural died in my eyes that can't really be returned to

I'm just recalling the points you used at the time we discussed dispenser changes off the top of my head

and mostly speaking in a personal manner to Cornholio, as he has been here quite a long time and I know respects a significant amount of the history that has taken place here over the years... But should stop rambling this is dev chat not my shrink

as Kane said on the Emblem space a while back with Adam:

"If you want to build a high speed train from Albany to New York City, you got to destroy a couple houses on the way"

@davesta lets pretend the CIPs and process you prefer still existed

At this point and time with the current results, what would you prefer was different technically?

Dweller had 71 commits, Jdog 48… founders 3,265

Is this the more commits wins view again?

It work for normies ...

@XCERXCP or another chat mod, would you mind unpinning the super old pinned version on this page? thank you!

They must be sleeping

Or on banker hours

yeah it’s not urgent

I'm less concerned about the technical aspects (excited, new stuff, yay) and more concerned about the social dynamics on how the technical upgrades are implemented

The whole TG drama and fork and hostility of both parties toward each other caused such a large rift and changed the dynamics so much in the community we lost something really dear to me in a *childish handling of the social dynamics within a billion dollar art marketcap*

and it's not about blaming this person or that person it's just an utter disappointment that all the smart individuals, new and old. OG or not. Could not just figure out a compromise...

and truly realize how this rift demolished the people creating art, running projects or HNFT collectors interested in xcp.... people who rely on the stability of wallets/protocol just got walked on and nobody really seemed to care about them.... which is so sad ... and not that a rift didnt happen with the stamp fee fork with Jdog.... but this one was way worse and to me and transcends both parties/"factions" involved

—-

- If I was to change something it would be reclaiming the singular tg chat (tried to DM both angry parties when it happened to no avail) ... this ship has sailed... one of the bigger mistakes imo

- a deeper respect was giving to the people who asked the new devs to listen to the community when we asked not to change dispenser functionality before a working replacement (this broke a significant amount of my trust in the new devs to actually listen to the current community) ...... but how it all played out.... new devs just blamed it all on Jdog as if he was the only one frustrated by that.... there were weeks and weeks (months actually) of discussion and opposition but they pushed it through anyways ....... and to be honest this side of the story isnt told accurately at all by new devs..... i get alot of you are frustrated with Jdog but at least see the merit in why he did what he did and how he explained himself - just because you don't like a person doesnt mean they dont have good reasons for doing what they do and that there isnt merit in their frustrations (lots of hotfixes in recent times... that is one prime example id say..... so much so if I was Dan Anderson or Al Fernandez id be punching a hole through my monitor having to update and fix stuff over and over)

- regarding the hotfixes.... which if you recall in the early days Adam and new devs got mad at the community that we (the community) werent testing their new updates .... ive never seen that before and usually it is the responsibility of the devs pushing new updates to be testing .... not happy to share xcp channels and info to developers when they see so many hotfixes ...... again probably because last "major" update added so many new features i assume they clashed with each other on the code — maybe there should be a process similar to how CIPs were put forward of how these things are discussed, added and tested —- and when significant issues (technical or social) are found, pause pushing them forward until they are resolved (i.e. dispenser changes and the community making fun of the lack of discussion of numeric subassets)

- take that stupid warning off FW on the website without whining left and right about the fork (which could have been avoided imo in many many places and many times) — have some respect for functionality that is useful right now. right at this moment if i am a new artist and i say you will have to use FW to burn your FAKEASF and put a memo for submission.... the thoughts that go through their head when seeing the warning would probably make them not submit at all ... why sell art on a protocol and in a community that isn't stable? .... do the new devs even know what a FAKEASF is and how it is used?

- bring back the base functionality of Counterwallet for 2.0 - again and again and again i see old users come back and ask the same question (where is Counterwallet)..... in my experience in my early days of xcp i didnt trust ANYBODY and only used Counterwallet .... if i were to come back now and see Counterwallet was down, a huge red warning is on the wallet i was aware of when i first started (FW) and then not even have access to functionality i once knew is really really sad.... see the above paragraph because my first thought as an artist or builder would be "huh better go build/mint on apechain or SOL or ETH then"....

- require all new devs to make a card in a current XCP collection and actually feel what it might be like to try to rely on the current xcp tooling to make a piece of art and sell it - XCP marketcap aint nothing compared to the tokenized art that exists on this space.... actually try to understand that if that part of artists selling their work (philosophy of xcp that really took off in 2017-2023) isnt taken seriously, users suffer - the devs don't rely on that, the users do... and "houses have been burnt down already" ..... when i first started the current dev John Villar and then Jdog after that were very active in the cultural side of the community and we absolutely lost that .... seems new devs are really not interested in Matt Furie or Ghostface Killah having art on their protocol they control or what that means to the broader crypto/nft community and how much it sets us apart in the historical grandeur of NFT history

- get some more public appearances by new devs (more Emblem vault spaces, more discussion, more hype and visual/audio understanding for casual followers of xcp) .... and uhm.... Tatiana Moroz is throwing an event directly focused on "The Counterparty" in January. Why Adam or new devs not interested in representing or showing up to something put on by the community.... and by Tatiana for Christs sake.... she is considered a legend in XCP NFT history and really is extending alot of money time and effort to bring light to this historical and influential thing we call Counterparty

I'd just add that the testing has obviously been woefully insufficient, combined with the new devs rush to slam out releases over a more conservative approach is a bad combo.

if their testing wasn't done, they shouldn't be pushing code to prod

This is a protocol with millions of dollars of assets on the line, I'm not arguing it should ossify, but changes need to be carefully tested

I'm also disappointed that its played out like it has, with both sides antagonizing each other

When I initially raised my concern with their plans to change dispensers, my post on github was deleted, and I was asked if I was a troll

https://x.com/rodarmor/status/1847759359495065650

Sick burn

Glad you’re still around @uanbtc

In confused Dispensers still work and we gained atomic swaps.

But in terms of Runes, what functions exist?

https://x.com/rodarmor/status/1847810170178646063

Casey says alot of things in his spaces, lol I feel he's in the room somewhere

Wouldn't be surprised

Yes this topic also came up when the theory of gallery Inscriptions were being discussed

Move fast, break things

As a matter of principle, and common sense imo, having less protocol changes per release increases the chances of continuing in consensus.

That is the answer to my “why” question.

Some (or many, unfortunately) don’t care about any of these principles and will just follow the cult leader on whatever he wants

CounterParty is 10 years+

Atomic swaps and psbt transactions was not new discussions that happened and applied over night.

In ordinal development discussion there was also the discussion of building a protocol around a wallets abilities, this would be silly.

Can’t ignore the many deleted messages. I was blocked from the repo for a month

Watching him speak in Nashville was interesting. The crowd was eating it up, counterparty was all I could think about.

That my friend I have no say or nothing to do with.

Juan is cool

I do know I've been booted out of the CounterParty room, freewallet, and tokenscan room. So I do see stuff weird also

He knows how to hold discussions

Just imagine trying to reach a consensus with 1000 developers and 100s of products and platforms

Lol

Well spoken. Counterparty could use a frontman like Casey.

Nothing is stopping anyone from being a frontman for CP

Maybe we could H1B someone

I've never seen Casey speak, what's the appeal?

or I should say, what is he good at in that sense?

He has a podcast
https://youtu.be/RBIYrC5y4iw

I think he talked shit about Counterparty in this one, then later has a mea culpa moment

In a later episode

Anyone know who I can contact to correct a card artist attribution that is wrong? Both PEPE•WTF and XCP•IO have one of ZETRA's cards attributed to me.

Pepe dot wtf dev is Al : @al_fernandz

Xcp dot io is Dan Anderson @droplister on twitter

I contacted Dan for artist mess ups too but it's been a while... no response

Thank you kindly!