How to run it without falling into SEC jurisdiction is the real question

AML

Easy

"trading cards" have value

Yup... But they aren't enforced too much

Art is taxable and tax write offable

And crypto is seen as a way to stick it to the "empire" by the government so it should be good, right?

Yup, that's why fleeing dictators love art

Easy way to transport huge amount of moneys

Good point

Stay away from fiat and other SEC type of operations.

Like the cardboard boxes switz brinks received from Maduro. Lol

Lol

Im moving pepes with $3 to $9 fees. All depending on traffic.

$3 not to often but a push from a higher fee tx gets it through.

Group tx like bittrex does would be fucking awesome.

Indeed

As any crypto rises in value, so those the cost of fees. Even if fees stay at a fixed rate of that coin.

I was about to ask the same

Updates are late

Where are the dev members?

Yea we really need segwit

I don't want to sent tokens with these prices

man there's a lot of salt in here

Their priorities were focused on leaving Bitcoin and moving to a shitcoin chain for what they were hoping would be a short term fix.

They wanted to do new burns and a land rush for registering the assets on the new chain. My question to them was what if someone else got the name SCOTCOIN and started trading it?

They were about to mess with a $200 million plus economy between Counterparty and PEPE.

The main dev spent all last month pitching all the different options. I don’t think that was the intent behind why he was being paid $9,000 per month for a halftime job.

P2SH was a huge undertaking Dante, don't downplay it

CIP6 is the enabling factor for CIP10 and future stuff like CIP13

Devon dedicated all hist time to that CIP which, imho, was pretty hard

John, I’m just calling like I see it

ok.... do your homework man

CIP10 and CIP13 can't be a reality if CIP6 wasn't done

CIP6 basically is another way of piggybacking the blockchain for huge messages

I was on every call. Where were you?

theoretically we can go up as high as 100kb messages

on venezuela, on a bandwidth constrained country

i've said i can't be on calls because the call drops all the time

the kid who never showed up for class is telling me to do my homework 😂

the kid who's doing some heavy lifting on code

fwiw

just so you know, your attitude is toxic asf

you were not around

meeh

you must be in the dark bruh

for what? hearing you talk and fight with the rest of the foundation? no thanks

CIP10 needs more coding, CIP13 needs more coding

the protocol won't move forward from bickering and quarreling

I was fighting what you all were trying to do by wanting to move to LTC

"you all"?

i proposed PUBLICLY pluggable chains

it's writteng

on a CIP pre-draft

Disagreement with a Coup attempt is not bickering

a pre-draft with call for comments

meeh

that's not a coup

since i entered the foundation, the topic that was on every conversation is "should we move or not?"

and this was from robby's mouth

I’m referring to what transpired in your absence

i was absent because i was busy being one of the two sole devs for counterparty

also, again, i can't be on calls, much less on discord

discord drops like crazy for me

hangouts is kinda tolerable

but only if use mobile data

which has hard cap quotas here

there was no reason it had to be on discord

except that someone at the foundation proposed it and the general consensus was "yeah"

i couldn't be the only "nay"

you could have suggested Hangouts for that reason

again.... hangouts is "tolerable" not good

for these kind of stuff, it is better to have written, durable, messages

I’m just saying that you were not around for 80% of all calls so don’t now try to report on what occurred

hmmm

ok sure

i'll let you handle all that

you're doing a great job

😘

How do you know what Robby said?

first call when you weren't still on the foundation

anyways.... "moving" to another chain needs dev work....

lemme know who was intending to do that?

afaik there are jsut two of us

and i'm not doing ANY work related to MOVING the main XCP chain to litecoin

and afaik, from the personal conversation devon and i have weekly, there's no intent on him to do so

3 people made a vote in a poll to move to LTC

they can vote whatever

foundation is not code

btw, i voted there

I don’t know what you’re even talking about now

if the foundation decides on something that doesn't aligns with the devs, the devs are free to leave

neither i brah

but i'm trying to understand why you say that poll was binding related to LTC

There is no foundation

indeed

When did I use the word binding?

I think you are avoiding the heart of the point that I am making

which is....

Dante what have you contributed to counterparty besides salt?

Devon, Robbie, and Ruben all voted to move to LTC and abandon the bitcoin blockchain

What weight does a foundation vote hold?

and the result was?

without devs, none

nor any other actor

Exactly, so who cares?

so anyways, if a contentious change comes, even from robby, we're free to fork the ecosystem

say, jdog and i decide "heh, robby fucked up, let's keep it running on btc"

then there's almost 0 chance the "moving" succeeds

I don’t account to you as you do not account to me. Therefore I will not ask you to provide a list of all of the chores that you have performed around your house. I will also not ask you what you have contributed to the local community you live in.

But you’re great at asking your stupid questions Joe

dante.... your contention is just about a quick poll on a call?

i think a poll on a call isn't binding....

So when a land rush for registering assets on LTC was to occur what was the plan for all of the Pepe assets to become registered and controlled by their existing owners on the bitcoin blockchain?

moreso without asking 50% of the dev team about it

i could care less about that

PEPEs on BTC are PEPEs on BTC

LTC value proposition is shit compared to pepes' rareness on btc

also.... different chains, different assets

i mean.... there's already monaparty

So the people who own Pepe assets on bitcoin we’re not going to mind when different people ended up owning the same exact asset name on LTC?

and energyparty

if you own power.com do you care if someone owns power.io ?

it's exactly the same question

not the same

yup

it's the same

RAREPEPE.btc vs. RAREPEPE.ltc

those are two different value propositions

guess what ppl will prefer?

That was the cute proposal that came out after I objected to the move to LTC

?

do yourself a favor.... CTRL+SHIFT+J rarepepewallet and go to wallet.js

check the first 50 lines

that's there since beginning of the year

There was never a PEPECASH.btc before

there is

No worries, it was a rhetorical question

as a concept

yup...

https://github.com/chiguireitor/counterparty-dns

do you think a counterparty dns would run better on btc or ltc?

and there would have been nothing to stop someone from creating an acid name on LTC called PEPECASH.btc

do you think the value proposition is valid on ltc as valid on btc?

Moving has always been impossible as you should know

that's an UI problem

if you use orthogonal UI semantics that asset would get called PEPECASH.btc.ltc

The Dan and Dante Batman and robin routine is pretty hilarious tbh

😂

You guys saw the xcp signal in the sky and came here to save counterparty from the forkers

Dan is technically capable to run a counterparty server and a counterwallet, why doesn't he?

So why did this entire group of people spend more than the last month focused on the various plans to move to LTC?

Ive said from day one that moving is impossible

Did bitcoin move to bitcoin cash?

Devon/Robby/Ruben can plan whatever they want man

it's a free world

If you're concerned about it, you should run a counterparty server and counterwallet

indeed...

also.... and i'll say it again.... the ecosystem is just JDog running some servers

so without jdog support, who they gonna call?

They were talking about Spinning up counterparty on LTC and essentially abandoning counterparty on BTC. That’s moving the same way someone leaves their home and moves into a different home

yeah.... but BTC won't die off....

and ANYONE is free to run counterparty servers on BTC

That’s exactly what’s being pointed out. The whole thing his way to centralized. It may as well be called J-Dogparty

i wouldn't have a problem with that lol

So run some servers!

btw dante, check the nugget in #general on slack

that's one of your achievements, good job

Why don’t you post it here so I don’t have to open up another client?

None

That's sad

Well I’m not surprised that since he did not get his way about moving to LTC he took a page out of J-Dog’s book and he is picking up his toys to go home

Yep

indeed

For him it was LTC or bust

what would happen to hodlers if all devs and service handlers took their toys and go home?

He spent all of last month pitching the different ways of moving to LTC

That did nothing to help counterparty on BTC

that was like 5% of his production time man

just look at the barrage of commits he made

I doubt it man

the guy is a beast

Have you looked at the commits Dante?

welp....

i feel like i'm talking with a wall

and i haven't had breakfast yet.... so i'll step away for a bit

maybe we all just need Danteparty

Yeah I'm looking forward to danteparty

No servers, no code, just Dante

PoQ: Proof-of-Quarrel

Looool

Musical Fees 🎵 hop down the list on coinmarketcap.com

Haha

All API calls are tg messages

@FloridaBitcoiner Get RAREPEPE balance

So we moving to Ltc?

Ltc will always be useful as bitcoin's testnet

MazaParty

Are the other xcp devs gonna quit soon too? I havnt been keeping up

I sympathize with the frustration, but also realize how hard it is to move

Unless we lock up jdog and burn his servers

I believe there is a bedrock of devs who will not move no matter the season's fashion

Don't worry we have danteparty now

Isn't Dante just a Dan sock puppet account

Looool

if all of those guys wanted to move to LTC it would’ve been better if they had the conversation in the open with the entire community but they did not want all of the other voices contributing their opinions

Don't worry here comes batman and robin to save the day

Dan is XCP's mascot, like dogecoin without the doge if he left

😂

No xcp is centralized

Deader than dead

Guise, need to eat... Stahp

Batman and Robin will save us

Does mr freeze have a sidekick?

Ok that works you can be freeze and Dante is ivy

@therealloon3 weren’t you, Shawn, Jdog, and John discussing doing a rebrand of Counterparty and making it a “pluggable chain” on many blockchains?

I've always been against pluggable chains, it doesn't maintain the security model

No, Gavin

I think he's going to work on Julian's bcash fork

you were talking about it with them?

Sure, and it generally went "guys this isn't going to work, I'd love to be proven wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one"

Can confirm

Much to John's dismay

And I was proven wrong by Dan about pluggable chains

Just a little cabal all discussing their secret plans

And those plans were communicated to you

That's accurate, the reason he's not sure if it would work is because I was telling him it wouldn't

Technically

And a public CIP was written

And discussed

And the idea taken down

They were communicated in the message I just posted after the fact and without all of the details that I was interested in

Yay scientific method

Because there were 0 details

The details are in my CIP

The idea was discussed when Dan was questioning where this came from and where the discussion happened annual told him that he was a conspiracy theorist and must believe in the illuminati

And it was taken down by one big blocking technical reason

Hmmm

I'm really glad and proud of us all coming together as a community to solve this through teamwork

Dante you won, you saved counterparty from the evil devs

Just so you know

That message specifically states that the community was not wanted to be involved

Pluggable chains want moving Counterparty to other chains

Believe me, no CIP gets the community involved in the proposal phase

Neither BIPs

For that matter

The community gets involved when the CIP enters draft or pre-draft phase

Dante have you and Dan ever had private conversations about counterparty?

After Dan pointed out to you how stupid an idea pluggable change was Then you took it down. After that it was all hands on deck with all those plans to move to LTC

That's the procedure used in almost any standards body

Ad-hominem will only get you so far Dante

only pillow talk

How dare you!!!!

I have nothing but respect to Dan's position

How dare you!!!

Do you have the ability to fork a GitHub repo?

He saw the idea and found a flaw and communicated it succintly

The same one I'd been pointing out from the start I should mention

Yup

But those were illegal private conversations so it doesn't count

Two voices pointed it out and I realized the idea wouldn't take off

Yup

That's how consensus is reached

You have a private idea in your head, bounce it off with some people that are part of the stakeholders, propose publicly a change and wait for comments

I think all the foundation funds should be given to Dan and Dante

They hold krellensteins true vision

If Joe, jdog, Shawn, Mike and I held all our conversations in public channels the noise to signal ratio would be unbearable

So you're proud of the authoritarian bottleneck here?

Justified?

Who? Me?

Anyone is free to work on counterparty and it's always been that way

Batman and robin have chased out the heathens

Shame on jdog for running the only counterparty block explorer and the public dev server

A conglomerate of private interests conspiring for self benefit. This is a possible pattern that could be repeated if the community is not part of any major discussion

Can I have a show of hands of people who want to have a real conversation?

Isn't that what we're having?

Enough of this virtue signaling

What about this isn't real?

Welp

It’s “Saint J-Dog” if you will

Xcp needs a dictator

For one, I don't think forks or separate implementations are a bad thing, and I intend to help foreign implementations as long as those feed back to XCP

Would you like him to take down xchain?

☝️word salad

Is that a hostage threat?

How virtuous

Just asking a question

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard the “I’m going to pick up my toys and go home“ threat before

It's a fact, not a threat

Until alternatives exist, it is the only explorer

But somehow you feel comfortable making threats on his behalf

Jesus

I hope he helps us all

You guys think servers and websites run themselves

Yup... And that's why the only active Dev on Counterparty is a guy in venezuela which gets called out by community members on bad engrish

Ooh sorry... Need potato...

I'm pointing out an issue that can only be resolved with more dev support, not less

Your English better than mine sadly

Y'all want the world then yell at those trying to build it for you

☝️victim

Google auto caption has hard time with your English

Dante if you cared about counterparty as much as you claim to, you'd run your own servers

Yup... So sad...

It's not jdogs fault he's the only one running them, it's everyone else's fault for not spinning up more

Can we all move forward in a positive way and discuss things that we agree on instead of this ad hominem finger-pointing? it's really sad.

There are so many pre assumptions at play coming from everyone that it's really hard to start.. being real

How should we start?

Coming from a place of real life guidance I find constructive criticism has both a negative and a positive to everything

i'll point out some facts then....

1) There was discussion to support other chains, the idea was taken down

2) There's an acute lack of devs on counterparty, we need to attract more

3) There's an acute lack of diversified public federated servers for devs to work with

4) There's only 1 block explorer and that puts XCP on a bind

5) The foundation in the current state, can't decide stuff because there's little support from the community to validate its decisions

I'd point out that for #5 the only thing the foundation should be deciding is how to spend donated funds

That's basically all the foundation members have been doing for several months.

yup

Yep I think that's not well known though

unfortunately, slack on the free tier doesn't saves those convos

Some think that the foundation makes protocol decisions

Protocol decisions follow the CIP process

I think that's not well known

Maybe it should be, but some of the accusations thrown around were that the foundation decides protocol changes in private

6) XCP needs a marketing push, there's ppl from the community offering their time for this

lol

amen

^this

this is a valid point, agree. shit dante said something that actually made sense in the last 24 hours 🤣🤣

Block explorers aren't much. There are a few that can easily be paid the the funds that the foundation manages.

Come on you guys. Im kind of tired of pulling out the popcorn.

Love that gif

If a dev wants to tackle this, I recommend forking insight and starting from there

So as I’m driving Counterparty protocol port to Bitcoin Cash project.. @FloridaBitcoiner what best reflects your your counterposition / alternate view on a better way to handle asset names on different implementations than @chiguireitor describes above in the RAREPEPE.btc RAREPEPE.ltc example?

theres nothing to "handle"

You could do anything UI wise

Question 2: Does our project even need to be a fork / port? Given the past 48 hours roadkill.. is this even an opportunity to circle back and invite comment / discussion on supporting Bitcoin Cash in Counterparty project?

oh julian

If you're going the graphical route, put an icon next to each asset to denote it's chain

there is no such thing as "moving" counterparty, its an imaginary idea

Joe - it is?

I agree with that. It’s like relocating a piece of real estate

Yup, better do a clean start

Dante - you do?

do what?

Do.. agree with Joe that the idea is imaginary

I already answered above

I’ll debate if it’s better @chiguireitor once we have dealt with it being fictitious or not first

But why?

Welp, my two cents, if you can do clean slate better

New burn

Why is the earth a sphere?

Even new magic for the message

John - I’m not even in opposition to your point.. I’m just firstly disarmed by Joe and Dante saying that this isn’t actually a defensible concept.

I think wording is important: moving is not the same as running a fork

👆🏻

Moving would imply the whole platform doing a mega checkpoint on BTC, but that would need community consensus (this is the impossible part with current state) and no everyone agreeing on not running on BTC anymore

Sure, wording == important. So is ‘moving’ something I wrote?

Running a clean slate fork though is the most ethical start and would probably benefit both communities

True that

Ok, I'm going to drive now, will get back to you later

Drive safe.

So ... dissecting words to the side for one moment...

I’m trying to ask 2 things:

1. The business of assets and the economic and equity issues of interest to asset issuers

2. The upheaval in the dev / user / foundation - does this recent kurfuffle open the door to proposing Bitcoin Cash support (in Counterparty proper - IE not a seperate project) or is this still just not going to fly?

Counterparty is a project that runs on the Bitcoin blockchain

it will always be that

even if the name is coopted

Thank you Joe. I’m reading that this reflects your personal view on Q2.. and that would be that no, Bitcoin Cash support isn’t the right step for the Counterparty project.

everything i type is my personal view

I guess that you don’t identify Bitcoin Cash as Bitcoin. Would you go so far as to say you are averse to BCH in general currently? Or is it just not Bitcoin without and unless or until it is the longest proof-of-work chain?

(Again a personal view greatly appreciated)

bitcoin cash is not bitcoin, its another thing

thats why it has a different name

Ok. Generally averse or based on proof-of-work?

(3 part question)

its just another altcoin, and there are better alternatives

like litecoin

Aka - what would need to change in the world?

an idea and a hammer

I don’t even disagree with your overarching point (Counterparty will always be on Bitcoin) I just disagree on what Bitcoin is.

Hence the underlying motivation to go full BCH

In addition to Joe - there are many other people in this room who would gag at the Counterparty project moving to BCH officially right? Anyone?

continuing would be easiest

especially with txindex instead of addrindex for the backend

it would just be like no one used it from aug 1st to now

julian why do you need to get people on your side? just launch it and be done with it

Ah.. because people are stakeholders

hahaha not unless you make them stakeholders

What choices are made has impact

Build it and they will come

(maybe)

lol

thats what pepecoin guys did

with kekdaq

forever burn

Love this idea

And while there are (Thomas Sowell) ‘no solutions only trade offs’ this isn’t something to go bull-in-a-china-shop at. Wide consultation is needed to be able to elicit most robust outcome.

yep, and its a peg in a certain sense

Maybe lower emission rate through burn

There’s another side to the XCP economics I don’t understand - this is a third question - I’d love to bounce off the room...

How are the fees / XCP utility arrived at..

pick a number

Creating XCP (Burn) is one thing.. but _then_ what.. XCP is destroyed when ‘purchasing’ an asset name.. when else does XCP get used today?

And why 1.5 XCP? Why not .75 or 18 XCP?

its 0.5

Was there / is there a kind of grand thesis of XCP lifecycle?

and it was just a choice made by the devs at the time

you can scroll through every git commit

Awesome - I will scroll through git commits.

I need XCP on BTC, my business depends on having rarepepeprty shares on the most secure chain

Forking Counterparty would be a disaster for projects like rarepepe, sog, memorychain, oasis mining. Especially to bitcointrash chain.

I dont think people realize how secure bitcoin really is. Except those forkners who want it on the trash chain. Lol

@KEKRELOADED - that’s not the feedback given by asset issuers and owners of those projects.

Im an asset issuer so of course it is.

Quote: “liquidity in the RAREPEPE market is dead right now”

@jsmith_dev

For who? Not me. I liquidate weekly. You interested? Im closing another weekly deal as we speak.

just sold one today. full disclosure 🐸

took PEPECASH for it

Rarepepe or certified rares as a whole? Rarepepe is on 1 of 1500. Pepecash liquidity is obvious. Isnt it?

No. I didn't see it. Prove it.

someone wanted one for 35k PEPECASH

https://xcpdex.com/RAREPEPE?market=PEPECASH

21k

@jsmith_dev Maybe you would like to own a few certified rare pepe assets and balances. Step into my office. Close the door behind you.

RAREPEPE is like a digital baseball card thing right? ..I don’t think it’s interesting to me.. but a USD$0.03 fee to exchange them (memes) beats USD$24.50 fees. For that very basic reason - trading cards (and BLOCKFREIGHT tokens) need more useful rails than the chain that BTC has become. I see the Bitcoin roadmap has moved on in the form of Bitcoin Cash and now Counterparty can too. If that isn’t by way of a project protocol change - then is by way of a seperate implementation.

There really isn’t more to it than bringing the protocol back into good standing and utility for daily use.

I think the BCash proponents are confused about the immediate business utility that big blocks provide vs.
long term sustainability of solutions that have value-add on a less immediate basis

Now that Xcp dev resigned

I think the BTC proponents are confused about how to displace government issued money with p2p electronic cash.

What about the roadmap

Is it still on track

Regarding cip updates?

I think you're confused if you think regressing to less and less secure block chains (by necessity to reduce fees as TX load piles on the successful ones) is a barrier to gov.t intrusion

I think you’re confused if you think that the SHA256 pools are wedded to BTC

And as a divorced man.. I can tell you that even if they somehow were, circumstances change, weddings just ain’t what they used to be in terms of a prediction of future arrangements.

Bitcointrash is not safe. Certified rare pepes cant be forked or they are just another meme.

Hash power is a mkt

Bitcoin Cash isn’t safe how?

Yes. Hash power is a mkt.

Best value gets the hash in the end

Paint a picture with a glow around the head. Give it blue eyes and blonde hair. Hang it on your wall and call it Jesus.

Best value gets the hash in the end - exactly. That’s why I’m skating to where the puck is going - hint: BCH.

Any non-top sha256 chain is in danger of being annihilated

It's scalability. It has a backdoor for exploitation. Dr Satoshi Craig Wright is a liar. Roger Ver is a white collar con. Bitcoin is valuable and power. These idiots are doing anything for that value and power.

Forking bitcoin onto another hash algo is one thing, but if you're competing for sha256 hashes, there can only be one

One of us one of us

What backdoor @KEKRELOADED ?

I love bch cuz I love all coins that can make profit in btc terms 😁

That is their focus. Ut can only be one. We the people control bitcoin. No governments no banks. Bitcontrash will be and already is a sellout

Bend over, spell R U N

Dan - XRP isn’t 🙂

What backdoor?

Bch is icarus and btc is dedalus

Fly into the sun, go high and get burnt

In order to scale, you need a way in.

Some coin needs to top btc's market cap for a day so people get over their btc anxiety

Im more interested in seeing the day Crypto market cap exceeds USD / CNY

The rest is noise

The cant stop bitcoin, only try and disrupt it for a little while. Over the past few years, bitcoin only has problems when someone is trying to sale some new shitcon.

Noise is fractal information

No - 56k dial-up modem is noise - it says - if you squint at this box in the right way - you will have a hazy vision of a future in which all the world’s information will be online and accessible

The factual information contemporary to the noise was that it wasn’t (then yet)

@KEKRELOADED I agree. BCH proves out that point.

Store of value and micro transaction medium aren't the same use cases and perhaps can use different systems. No one knows for sure yet, and we are privileged to watch the drama unfold and get involved if we wish.

Monero has another value add that btc nor bch can compete with. Also useful in tandem but not a good micro payment system nor kitty breeding platform

Store of value and micro transactions ARE perfectly well coincidental and compliments.

Moreover: pico-transactions and store of value can cohabit.

But they are not necessarily linked via a single block chain system

I’m not sure where you find this bias against them being unified.

In fact as long as hashes are scarce, there is real economic value to store a TX in a block. So to scale past that you need other rails. Ala lightning, segwit, et. al

Assuming a global population of what number in what year?

but what about the vision!!

And how do you project shift in internet bandwidth playing out (fiber / 5g etc)

What’s a non-state money system worth?

Every vision wishing to use sha256 competes directly with all others who choose it

What is the economic delta between letting these sociopaths control money issuance vs dictating value amoung the hoi polloi?

"What do you do for a living?"

"I yell at men in frog-themed chatrooms about the security of their digital frogs"

It’s NYE